From: madrone@cruzio.santa-cruz.ca.us
Subject: Re: Dianic question.
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 93 11:20:32 PDT

bast@wam.umd.edu, Jaguar writes:
> Hmmm. I always thought of Diana as linked with the cresent moon, the
> moon growing twords full. More maiden aspect.  All those tales of
> the huntress goddess Diana and notes of her chastity in those greek
> tales.  Jaguar

My impression is the same.  I think the Dianic tradition is so-called
because Dianics, like Diana, reject men in their rituals.

It's interesting to me that most of the surviving positive Goddess
images are Maiden in nature.  Where the Mother exists, she is often
stripped of her sexual aspects (or the sexual aspects are stripped of
the ensuing motherhood).  And the Crone has received really bad
press.

I've been thinking about the aspects of the Goddess.  I've come to
equate the Maiden with a child or young woman and to see pregnancy
rather than sexual intercourse as the dividing line between the Maiden
and Mother aspects.  And to see the empty nest rather than menopause
as the beginning of the Crone period.  I guess I see more of a
continuum rather than well-delineated phases.  
-- Heather Madrone
(madrone@cruzio.santa-cruz.ca.us or ..netcom!cruzio!madrone)
===

From: weaver@ah.ucns.uga.edu (Michael Weaver)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1993 19:18:05 GMT

[Stuff about problems with Goddess transitions deleted]

One thing that I have considered, more than anything else, as a
divider between Maiden, Matron, and Crone is personality. A woman
makes the transition from Maiden to Matron gradually as she goes from
the enthusiasm of youth to the stability of adulthood. She goes from
Matron to Crone as she goes from patiency and stability of adulthood
to the wisdom and sharp wit of old age.

I don't feel that sex or children are a true divider. Women who are
definitly in the Maiden aspect have 5 year old children, and women who
are Crones who have never had children (or sex, in some
cases). Certainly these events can and do have a relationship to the
transition from one phase to another, they aren't needed for the
transition.

Blessings,
Mike
===

From: madrone@cruzio.santa-cruz.ca.us
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 93 17:34:28 PDT

ceci@lysator.liu.se, Cecilia Henningsson writes:
[...]
> Or, to cut it short, women of blood and flesh have received bad
> press.

You certainly have that right.  Although occasionally, a strong woman
like Athena or Artemis is allowed so long as she totally identifies
with the patriarchy and has no sexuality.

> I've been thinking some about that too, mainly in relation to
> myself. You're right in that seeing the initiation into sex by a male
> as the dividing line between Maiden and Mother doesn't make sense in
> today's world. I mean, nowadays we know that little children have sex
> lifes, and besides, it just doesn't seem right to need someone of the
> other gender for it. What about lesbians? Where would all the pocket
> calculators go?
[...]

I object to equating the Maiden with virginity.  To me, the Maiden
means the young, footloose and fancy free woman discovering her power
and beginning the footrace.  The Mother is a woman with adult
responsibilities and power.  Childbirth is one good way to enter the
powerful adult space.  Certainly any other way of becoming a parent
would qualify.  (BTW, I know several lesbian mothers.)

I'm not sure about women who never become physical or adoptive
mothers.  If they are responsibile adult women, perhaps they could
decide for themselves?  The perpetual Maiden has a power of her own
and I don't see why all women should have to pass through the Mother
phase.  Some women who don't choose motherhood might enjoy being
eternal Maidens.  Others might see themselves as moving into the
Mother space at some point.  I see nurturance as part of the identity
of the Mother, but I'm certainly not setting myself up as THE SOLE
AUTHORITY ON THE PHASES OF THE GODDESS.

> The same goes for the division between Mother and Crone. I just don't
> feel like having kids, but I still think that I will eventually evolve
> into a Crone, possibly even turning people into toads. That would be
> fun, wouldn't it?

I can think of a few people who'd make great toads :-).  I was
thinking of the empty nest as being a better measure than physical
menopause because it seems true for women of my mother's generation.
I am on the path of motherhood.  For women on other paths, other
significant events, such as retirement, may move them into the Crone
space.

The map is certainly not the reality and I agree with you that every
woman (in her guise as the Goddess incarnate) can define the
transitions for Herself.  Which is what I'm trying to do.  Personally,
I felt like a Maiden until I bore my first child at 27.  Giving birth
to and mothering Morganne definitely moved me into the fullness of the
Mother.  And I have found that as Mother I am strong, confident,
decisive, patient, nurturing and won't take no shit from anyone.  A
lot stronger than the insipid patriarchal version, that's fer shur.

--Heather, who finds this discussion a lot more interesting than
medieval xian philosophy.  
===

From: blchapma@eos.ncsu.edu (BEKKI LYN)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1993 21:06:17 GMT

The more I study on the Maiden-Mother-Crone images, I get the feeling
that we move through all those phases many times in our lifetimes.
Although we might not physically resemble what we might see these
images as looking like, I tend to view them as a mindset and then as
images.

For example:
I feel like doing something fun and spontaneous one day, but I want to
do it alone with no men, or maybe with other women.  I feel very
Maiden.

I want take special care of something, such as a pet, and spend time
pampering it.  I want to decorate the house.  I feel very Motherish.

I study and learn and sometimes feel wise in a sense at a revelation
that I've come upon.  I might advise someone that asks for help with a
problem.  I feel very Cronish.

There is much more to how I view this, but this is a skeletal
representation of what I'm feeling at this point. 

Bekki Lyn
===

From: lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Date: 5 Aug 1993 19:27 CDT

[quoting Ceci and Heather]

I think a major point is missing....wisdom, experience, maturity,
etc...  Maiden, Mother, and Crone are representations of the various
stage of gathering life experiences.  It also represents female
energy.  I myself am in the Mother stage though I have no children and
never will....at least none of my own.  (There are some things that
medical science still can't cure without owning Fort Knox.)  And there
are many women out there that are mothers, but that doesn't mean that
they are in a Mother phase.

Not to mention that just because a male sticks his penis into the
vagina of a female doesn't mean that she has changed any as a human
being.  She simply has attained a new experience....one of millions
which may and can occur in her life.

[quoting Ceci]
Exactly.  Maiden, Mother, and Crone are physical representations of
spiritual aspects of being female.  
===

From: burkel@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Laura)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 08:44:20 GMT

[quoting Tammy, Ceci and Heather]

As coincidence would have it, I've been thinking about this in
relation to myself as well.  I've always wondered about the seeming
gap between Maiden and mother. Maiden seems like a real introductory
phase... reminds me of the tarot's Fool.. At 0. Mother on the other
hand is someone at her peak. Creatively, reproductively, starting to
assimilate things learned as the Fool or something. For me, that
leaves a big gap. Especially considering that I am not the Mother
yet.  But, perhaps pompously, I don't believe I am the Maiden
anymore.  [I haven't delved into the gap between Mother and Crone yet,
most likely because, as all self-centered people will, I have not
experienced it yet, so I know little about it]. So, what do I do?
I've basically set up a dark goddess in my framework to deal with this
implicitness. Ad dark goddess meaning someone who is sexual, but whose
sexually is creatively turned inward, not outward into creation.
Someone who =is= self-centered instead of being more giving to
others.  She gets to be more hidden because she is developing me,
well, we are developing me together... she's a little more secret than
the others.  Like a project under construction. She's also testing her
powers, developing those that center inner strength-- another facet of
being both hidden and turned inward. I guess I describe her so
romantically because I am just learning to appreciate her, and by
nature, myself.

[deletia]
[quoting Tammy, Heather and Ceci about models and reality]

And for me, a smilimg dark goddess off in the shadows too.

Laura
===
From: lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Date: 11 Aug 1993 00:39 CDT

>In a previous article, lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) says:
>> I repeat, there are some things medical science cannot cure without
>> owning Fort Knox.  Just because a woman bleeds doesn't mean that
>> she has attained the wisdom associated with it.  Just like if she is
>> penetrated with a male penis doesn't mean that she gained any wisdom
>> from that either.

>> I really wish people would stop using physical traits to denote
>> mental and spirital milestones.  Tammy Stark Blandino

af280@Freenet.carleton.ca (Sandra P. Hoffman) writes...
> Sometimes, these are interesting ways to frame a discussion, and
> they often lead me to think of what is really important. I will
> never again think of passages in terms of physical traits without
> hearing your pain.  This is an important learning. The other problem
> with this menstrual metaphor is that most girls shed their first
> blood within 3-5 days of birth.


The problem, I believe, is that the maiden, mother, and crone are
"ideals" which "represent" stages.  Just because the terms maiden,
mother, and crone are used doesn't mean that that is what is meant
literally.

All religions, and I repeat ALL RELIGIONS, are filled with symbolism.
Problems arise when the symbolisms are taken literally for they wind
up losing "something" in the "translation".

I think that maiden, mother, and crone were used because the phases
are best represented by those images for females.  To say that a woman
is in the mother phase because she is 30ish and has children is to
misunderstand what "the mother" is.
===

From: lecuyer@wam.umd.edu (CLIS library)
Date: 10 Aug 1993 20:54:14 GMT

, Heather wrote:

> I object to equating the Maiden with virginity.  To me, the Maiden
> means the young, footloose and fancy free woman discovering her
> power and beginning the footrace.  The Mother is a woman with adult
> responsibilities and power.  Childbirth is one good way to enter the
> powerful adult space.  Certainly any other way of becoming a parent
> would qualify.  (BTW, I know several lesbian mothers.)  > I'm not
> sure about women who never become physical or adoptive mothers.  If
> they are responsibile adult women, perhaps they could decide for
> themselves?  The perpetual Maiden has a power of her own and I don't
> see why all women should have to pass through the Mother phase.
> Some women who don't choose motherhood might enjoy being eternal
> Maidens.  Others might see themselves as moving into the Mother
> space at some point.  I see nurturance as part of the identity of
> the Mother, but I'm certainly not setting myself up as THE SOLE
> AUTHORITY ON THE PHASES OF THE GODDESS.

> The same goes for the division between Mother and Crone. I just
> don't [there's something missing here, probably "perceive" --Ceci]
> of the empty nest as being a better measure than physical menopause
> because it seems true for women of my mother's generation.  I am on
> the path of motherhood.  For women on other paths, other significant
> events, such as retirement, may move them into the Crone space.

I often see the triple Goddess in this way:

	Maiden - independent/freedom/exploration/adventure

	Mother - creativity/responsibility/nuturance

	Crone - reflection/wisdom/teaching

And remember, no matter how old you are, or wether or not you've had
children, or gone through menopause, each one of us has each aspect of
the Goddess within. That goes for you too, guys.

Blessed be,
Cathy
===

From: cfreinke@adobe.com (Carol Freinkel)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1993 18:13:16 GMT

Another way of looking at Maiden, Mother, Crone and the menstrual
cycle is the monthly cycle itself and the waxing and waning of the
moon.

The Maiden is the early part of the menstrual cycle, just after
menstruation is complete.  Part of this time is "pre-fertile," just as
the Maiden is.  This also corresponds to the young crescent moon.

Full moon corresponds to the Mother phase, which is also the time of
greatest fertility in the menstrual cycle (e.g., mid-cycle, fertile
mucus, etc.).  The full moon also corresponds to the round egg as it
leaves the ovary and sails down the fallopian tubes.

The Crone portion of the menstrual cycle is that time after the
unfertilized egg dies, and the womb prepares to shed its lining.  This
is also the time of PMS and rebalancing.  This corresponds to the
waning moon and the last crescent that rises in the dead of night.

Menstruation itself is the dividing line between the Crone and the
Maiden.  The Crone dies and is reborn as the Maiden, and the cycle
continues.
===

From: bush@bohr.physics.upenn.edu (Judith Elaine Bush Newton)
Date: 12 Aug 93 02:44:53 GMT

vrauls@nmsu.edu, goddess writes (edited):

|> I don't know much about chaos theory, but this reminded me of
|> something I've read about.  One of the interesting things about this
|> theory is that if you map something chaotic (say a mountain range) and
|> zoom in on it (say to a rock or pebble), you will find the same
|> pattern repeated.  As I said, I don't know much about this, but I
|> asked around the lab and it seems that this is a proven occurrence -
|> though I couldn't get the name of it.  This works in people's lives too.
|> You may have many ups and downs in a day, and they map outward to the
|> ups and down in your life.
|> 

This is called fractal structure. For a particularly friendly
introduction to chaos and fractal structures try Gleick's book
_Chaos_. One of the revelations of fractal structure is that with very
simple sets of instructions (an iterated equation or the instruction
in genes) extraordinary complexity can result. This complexity cannot
be predicted because of the extreme sensitivity to initial conditions
and perturbations. So our appreciation of fractal structure provides
us with an explanation of how, say, a tree can have the genetic
instructions of how to branch and divide--instead of genetic
instructions that detail where each brancing occurs, only a basic code
is provided--the myriad differences come from the difference in amount
of sun light, water, etc....

I think that this is a particularly beautiful and helpful way of
looking at the Maiden/Mother/Crone triad. From this "simple" set of
archetypes we are all able to construct complex and wonderful ways of
understanding our lives and how to live. Thanks, Venus, for providing
me with a wonderful meditation for the evening!

Disclaimer: I am not a chaos theorist although I'd love to be. Maybe I
can fit it in later....
Cheers,
judith
===

From: peregrine@argyll.enigma1.com (Mark Eric Stein)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 93 21:16:43 EDT

94sjr@williams.edu (Joy) writes:
>   When the day comes that I take my life into my own hands and no
> longer may relax while someone else takes care of decisions--this
> rather than the sexual act marks the end of my maidenhood.

Maybe I'm just too much a child of modern times for this discussion...
or some of you might think my male viewpoint doesn't have a lot of
place in this discussion, in which case please ignore me rather than
flame me.  But here's my take on the subject.

Part of what bothers me about it is that the archetypes are geared so
that there's no real period of transition between being cared for by
another (maidenhood) and taking on the caregiver role _for_ another
(motherhood). If forced to the point, I'm inclined to put the phase in
between - wherein the maiden becomes responsible for herself, but not
yet for another - with the maiden archetype still, not with the
mother.  I'm inclined to think of the maiden archetype as less a
question of who's caring for her, than her level of responsibility
_for others_. So the emotional break-point is where she takes on
responsibility for another.

By extension, then, mother would become crone when the people for whom
she has taken responsibility are fit to claim responsibility for
themselves - when she releases them to their own devices. When she can
be "mother emeritus," if you will. (I wish my own mother would get a
grip and move gracefully into cronehood! - MES)
===

From: kieran@brewich.hou.tx.us (Kieran ap Rhys)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 93 17:41:02 -0600

In <24cpj5INNkqo@bigbird.cc.williams.edu> 94sjr@williams.edu (Joy) writes:
  
> I certainly hope that the physical line between virgin and sexually
> active is not teh dividing line between maiden and mother!  The
> question (at least at this end of the cycle, for me) seems partially
> about dependence/ responsibility:
  
> when I rely on others to feed me, educate me, house me, etc., then I
> am a maiden -- when those decisions are mine to make for myself
> and/or for others, then will I be a mother?
  
> But this just occurred to me while I was whistling in the dark, and
> I do not see where the Crone would fit in.
  
> But it has been said before: to rely on physical states and divisive
> lines based on them is limiting.  It is a question of symbolism
> rather than actuality.  When the day comes that I take my life into
> my own hands and no longer may relax while someone else takes care
> of decisions--this rather than the sexual act marks the end of my
> maidenhood.

> At least today at 2AM.
>--Joy

> But I am interested in what the men think of this system/
> symbology!?

          Speaking for myself (and anyone who agrees)  I'm impressed.
   
          Men go through many of the same sorts of cycles; It's always
struck me as interesting that even the most patriarchal of
patriarchies don't formally recognize this.
          I've lately been working with the idea of Boy - Man/Father -
Sage as well as the Triple Goddess...
          The dividing lines fall roughly where yours do, in terms of
learning and then accepting responsibility for self, then accepting
direct responsibility for others in the second phase.
          I think, for men and women, the Crone/Sage cycle might begin
when you no longer have DIRECT responsibility for the physical and
spiritual well-being of the following generation (and I don't think
this has anything at all to do with chronology.)
          As an example, when I went from boy to man (not father,
physically) IMO my parent's position in MY life went from
Mother/Father to Crone/Sage; their input into my life was no longer
material --I did not depend on them for my physical well-being.  The
interaction became spiritual/intellectual.  I still learn from them;
my mother has become one of my best friends and more trusted advisors.
(Curiosly, I've also become one of hers...wierd world we live in..)
My father passed on ten years ago yesterday, but I still am learning
(and UNlearning) some of his lessons that I never could have while he
was here, so he still has some counsel for me.
          This brings up a couple of things: Is it reasonable,
perhaps, to think that the phases of a life are also determined by
interaction with OTHER people -- and not on a group level?
          IOW, Cannot we be on multiple levels at once?     
          To follow the example above a step further: If my younger
sister had survived, she'd be transitioning from Maiden to Mother
about now (or possibly a few years ago) so for her our mother's
transition from Mother to Crone would have taken place several years
later than it did for me.
          As you suggested, it's symbolic -- but for me the symbolism
of life stages is at least partly defined relative to the people who
surround us.
          
          Disagreements and expansions welcome; I speak only for me.
Your Mileage May Vary; read and follow label directions; TT&L, dealer
prep and options extra.......
                              B*b, Kieran
===

From: meesh@happy.cc.utexas.edu
Date: 16 Aug 1993 11:32:46 -0500

OK, I wasn't going to get involved in this, but I had to after I read:
[quoting Marc Stein about missing stages]

Well, personally, I use four archetypes - Maiden, Warrior, Mother and
Crone.  This allows for exactly what you describe - an archetype of a
woman who is independent, capable and active, and is focused on
herself and her own needs and desires.  I 'stole' the idea from the
author Mercedes Lackey, who uses these Goddess archetypes in her
fantasy books.

As far as the rest of the discussion goes, personally I think we have
a bit of all the archetypes within us all the time, we just 'realize
them' more fully at different times in our lives.  When I was six
years old and I was standing up for myself in front of a cabin full of
summercamp bullies, I'm positive the warrior spirit rose in me.  (Of
course I didn't know it at the time!)  Putting physical boundaries on
when we experience the archetype is useless to me.  What's the point
of the archetypes at all?  I think they help us live our lives fully,
we can draw strength from them by finding them in ourselves.
Sometimes I feel the crone in me, though I definitely still an feeling
the pains of menstruation!!

By the way, Marc, about your post, I definitely am interested in the
male point of view on this subject.  It's not like I don't have
opinions about male archetypes!  Thanks for posting, especially
because you described what I wanted to say much better than I could
have.

meesh
=== 

From: Meche.Haga@launchpad.unc.edu (Mechelle Jeneene Haga)
Date: 17 Aug 1993 00:58:11 GMT

[quoting Meesh's about her four archetypes]

I too, use the four archetypes that were introduces to me by Misty. I
feel that they are very useful as they allow for a very self relisnt
female archetype who not only can fight for herself, but can also be a
caring protector, rather than just a nurturing source.  just a partial
quote from one of the songs that Misty wrote for her books: 

Maiden, Warrior, Mother, Crone, 
Help us keep this land our own.  
Rover, Guardian, Hunter, Guide, 
Help us keep this dream alive.

I have a tendancy to take much of my spirituality from the fiction
that I read, and had done this for yaers before I had ever found
out/realised that there were other people out there who were
feeling/believing much the same as I was. This made me feel like I was
a fake Pagan, and that what I was doing in gathering the wisdom from
the sources that I chose was wrong. I am pleased to say that I no
longer feel this way. Reading _Drawing Down The Moon_ had a lot to do
with that, as the main message that I got from it was an over-
whelming reasuarane that it is ok to make it up as you go along.  It
is nice to see that someone else has taken something from one of the
same sources that I did.

-moon*wylf-
===

From: ag055@yfn.ysu.edu (Ward Chanley)
Date: 17 Aug 1993 16:25:12 GMT

quoting Carol Freinkel:
the Crone and the Maiden.  The Crone dies and is reborn as the Maiden,
and the cycle continues.  ----

Well, except that in our tradition, it's the -male- selves of the
Goddess (aka male Gods) who die and are reborn.  She is immortal, he
is cyclical.  I tend to think of the Goddess as embodying -each- of
the metaphors at any given time.  Seek the face of Persephone, and if
you find it, it'll likely contain Demeter and Hecate as well.  Perhaps
the cyclical nature of transformation you symbolize as the death of a
crone is happening here too, with the fluid nature of our Goddesses,
changing name and form as we experience them...
===