To: talk.religion.newage
From: kathy@vpnet.chi.il.us (Redheaded Goddess) 
Subject: Conversation with Pir Vilayat Khan
Date: 49941129

Lakum dinukum wa-liya dini


What follows is a post I picked up off of talk.religion.newage, 
edited slightly for typos.

La ilaha illa 'Llah.  Muhammudun rasulu 'Llah.

Haramullah

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[partial excerpt of "A Conversation with Pir Vilayat Khan", The Monthly
Aspectarian, p. 10-14, May nineteen ninety issue].  The Monthly 
Aspectarian is CHICAGO'S NEW AGE MAGAZINE.

Since recently there appeared in trna an inquiry about "a Sufi",
and also I notice time from time people's comments in this newsgroup
asking about sufism, I thought I would share something that I found
today in my cabinet, which is an interview with Pir Vilayat that 
appeared in a local Chicago-suburban area monthly publication 
called The Monthly Aspectarian.

I will post only a section of the interview, which was between
the Monthly Aspectarian [TMA] and Pir Vilayat Inayat Khan [PK]:

TMA:  How would you describe Sufism?

PK:  Well it would take a lot of books to describe Sufism.

TMA:  The thumbnail version, then.

PK:  It's the "ism" part I don't like, so I'll try to speak more about
the Sufis than Sufism.  I know they often define this as being the 
mysticism of Islam.  I think that it represents the convergence of a lot 
of currents from various religions, and I think the origin is way back
prior to Islam, and even prior to Zoroastrianism.  I think it is 
in the old Macedonian tradition of the Magi, the three wise men for 
example, the Magus.  It takes, of course, a deep study of Sufism to 
retrace that origin.  You know that the troops destroyed the library
which had a marvelous collection of old aesthetic learning of the 
Macedonian tradition.  But one of our Sufis was able to pick up
that knowledge.  We're not quite sure how much was purely Macedonian and
how much knowledge he had from traces that were still underground in 
esoteric schools in Iran at the time.  I think that the best way of 
defining Sufism is...we are talking about the experience of mystics 
who found it difficult to confine themselves to the proscriptions
of religion which, for them, was intended for the masses.  Whereas 
they needed to honor their experience.  And for that reason, for example,
Sufism is not really recognized in Saudi Arabia--it is considered in
a derogatory way.  Sometimes it had been, in the course of histories, 
invalidated by those in power.  But I think that the only way in which
Sufism, the sayings of the Sufis, were accepted was to consider they were
the sayings of a mad person.  So that was a very good way out of getting
into difficulty.

Hallaj was crucified, as you probably know.  And I think today many of
the things that he said are still condemned, and therefore I think 
it is a mistake...I think that maybe, at best, one could consider
Sufism as a heresy that is not to be accepted in Islam.  Although some
people say the other way around, the Sufism is the real gist of Islam,
and the way of how it is presented is, as my father said, they are 
the followers of the followers of the followers; they are not the 
followers of Mohammed, they are the followers of the followers of the
followers.

That being so, many influences came in.  For example, into the corpus
of Sufism, for example, Buddhism, Korasan, Christianity.  It is very
well possible that the word Sufi originates in a conversation between 
a dervish and a Mullah, and the dervish is being accused by the Mullah
of wearing wool because he was supposed to follow the example of the 
prophet Mohammed, who wore cotton.  And he said, "I'm following the
example of Christ."  It's a very surprising statement, and all that 
they knew in those days was the the Christian monks were wearing 
wool because they had made a vow of poverty, whereas cotton was the 
dress of the richer folk.  And so somehow Sufism was the way of the 
dervish, and the word Suf means wool; so they derived the word
Sufi from those who wear wool because they are following the way of 
poverty--of the hermits who are in the world but not of the world.
Although actually, in Islam there is a saying, "There is no monasticism
in Islam."  So it's really at the margin.  It's not really totally
accepted, although many people feel that it is the cream of the 
Islamic gift.  So there's two absolutely opposite views.


TMA:  As the perceived esoterics of Islam, it's not surprising that 
it would have predated Islam itself.  Similar to the esoterics of the
other systems.

PK:  Yes.  I think that when you talk the language of the mystics we
find that there is a lot of commonality between them because they're
talking experience.  I often organize congresses, at least I used 
to organize congresses of religions, and I found that each representative
stayed very much into their theology and were afraid of being disloyal
to their particular theology.  [TMA:  Or being contaminated by the 
others?]  Or contaminated by the other ones.  Well it's very under-
standable because our sense of sacredness is so treasured, and our 
religions are a kind of form that give those who value their sacredness
some kind of protection.  And if that protection goes, then one doesn't
know what's going to happen.  And you can see the result. When religion 
is not observed you see what happens: terrible defilement, terrible
criminality and vulgarity and so. on.  

For example, a friend of mine said--who's an American but he lives 
in Saudi Arabia--he said, "My wife can walk in the streets in Saudi
Arabia at nighttime and will not be molested.  But she isn't safe
on the streets of New York at any time."


TMA:  One of the differences that I think I see between the Sufi and the
other mystery schools is that the Sufi seems to live more in the 
physical world than the other systems.  The other systems seem to be 
trying to get away from the world.

PK: Well of course that is a generality.  I think that people do have 
a need to get in touch with their inner being, even if they are in the 
world.  My father does place the accent--achievement in life and 
also awakening in life--from awakening out of life.  Samadhi is often,
for example, a way of awakening to the allness in everywhere, and 
I call it awakening in life; awakening in the way that allness and everywhere
manifests in the here and now.  So it's directly oppostie.  It is true
that Sufism lends itself to that orientation towards existence.

First of all, I must say that one of the strong powers to be found 
in Islam is the idea of iskala, which means "the divine nostalgia".
So that the whole of creation is the fulfillment of the divine nostalgia
towards manifestation and activation.  And, therefore, we would be 
going counter to that basic impulse behind creation if we were to try 
to liberate ourselves from it.  So that the word liberation doesn't
come into the picture as far as I know, although one Sufi spoke about 
returning to the state in which you were before you were involved in the 
state of becoming--in the process of becoming.

[partial excerpt of "A Conversation with Pir Vilayat Khan", The Monthly
Aspectarian, p. 10-14, May nineteen ninety issue].  The Monthly 
Aspectarian is CHICAGO'S NEW AGE MAGAZINE.

Submitted by:

Kathy
kathy@vpnet.chi.il.us

       @}-->---

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