From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Dec 31 18:21:11 1995
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Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 10:21:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Lilyan Ila
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Cc: tariqas@world.std.com
Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth and posting of writings
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asalaam-u-aleikum
Amin to all of above!
Lily
From Majordomo-Owner@world.std.com Sun Dec 31 19:44:07 1995
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--
Zamyat Kirby has been added to tariqas.
No action is required on your part.
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 02:26:28 1996
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>I'm not sure what to do about this situation. There seem to be two
>different "camps" here -- those that value the many postings that have
>been contributed by Fouad Haddad, and those that would prefer that these
>postings not be quite so voluminous.
>One alternative that might make sense would be to publish such types of
>materials over the Web, and to simply announce their presence, from time
>to time, in tariqas -- so that people who were interested and had access
>to the Web could look them up.
Inshallah, we plan to make these postings available on the Haqqani
Foundation Homepage. They can be located via the table of contents at:
http://www.best.com/~informe/mateen/Sufi/toc.html
If you have not stoppped by lately, let me invite you to do so. There are
many articles and translations of classic Islamic and Sufi works, news from
overseas, transcribed lectures, poetry, and material in nine languages. We
invite contributions from all.
Salaams,
Hamza
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 01:43:00 1996
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To: Tariqas
Subject: Rumi 7.121
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 95 20:43:00 -0500
From: "Wm. Whitney"
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-- [ From: Wm. Whitney * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --
The following excerpt is published with permission of
the Publisher, CEL\e Productions.
7.121
O Beloved, whose light
Comes from behind the curtains,
Your light and warmth
Are like summer for us.
Take us to the rose garden,
Our Hearts are fiery like summer.
O salve for the eyes of my soul,
Where did You go?
Come, come, so the water
Will spring from our oven.
Come, so the barren land will be green,
The cemetery will become a garden,
Grapes will ripen
And our bread will cook.
O sun of Soul, sun of Heart,
O Beauty, who shames the sun with Your beauty,
Come and see that sticky mud
Which got stuck to our Soul.
We can't get rid of it.
The kindness of Your face
Has changed so many thorns
Into so many rose gardens
That our faith has been increased
Hundreds of thousands of time.
O eternal Love, in order to deliver this Soul
Out of this dungeon to God,
How beautifully You showed Your face from this mold.
O bright morning,
Make joy during the time of gloom.
Show in the evening
A bright, wonderful day.
You make pearls our of blue beads
And hang them around the mules' necks.
You scare Venus.
You make kings out of the penniless.
Good for You, our Sultan.
Where are the eyes that will see a trace of Your dust?
Where are the ears that hear our testament?
Where is the mind that understands our evidence?
If the Heart sees the beauty of that sugar cane
And tells of its grace and favors,
Taste and flavor will sing songs
At the bottom of every tooth.
The sound of drums coming from the land of Soul
Is saying, "Particles are reaching everywhere,
Sweet basil to sweet basil,
Rose to rose.
Everything is becoming free
>From the jail of our thorns."
(c)1995, CEL\e Productions.
Contact >paneagle@peoples.net<.
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 03:34:33 1996
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Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 20:34:33 -0700
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
From: gws@wolfe.net (George Steffen)
Subject: Re: posting of writings
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Assalam Aleikum
While I am one who has appreciated every article which Fouad Haddad
and others (poems, treatises and voluminous opinion) have posted I suspect
that there are others who a variety of problems with these postings. I
would support two ideas. Those who can post on the www do so and inform us
of those postings if it is not too much trouble to do so. Second, those
who respond to issues on this BB might take a page from the criticism of Mr
Haddad and limit those responses to something like a page or two. We have
been subjected to some long postings and conciseness is definitely a virtue
in communication.
With regards to Mr Haddad and his marvelous work,
Habib N.
>Assalamu alaikum.
>
>I'm not sure what to do about this situation. There seem to be two
>different "camps" here -- those that value the many postings that have
>been contributed by Fouad Haddad, and those that would prefer that these
>postings not be quite so voluminous.
>
>Insh'Allah, perhaps understanding of each other's perspective, and a
>willingness to seek alternatives, might be useful. Among other things,
>not everyone has the same priviledge of access to their email account at
>a low cost or free. If someone pays for the time that it takes to
>download their mail, or pays for the volume of messages received, dozens
>of postings can be quite expensive. On the other hand, many of us
>clearly appreciate the value of these postings, and it is the foundation
>of tariqas that people share what they want (within the bounds of
>Netiquette/Adab, Insh'Allah).
>
>One alternative that might make sense would be to publish such types of
>materials over the Web, and to simply announce their presence, from time
>to time, in tariqas -- so that people who were interested and had access
>to the Web could look them up. That would also have the benefit of
>making these postings better organized than is possible in my email
>reader at least, and turning them into a resource for future use. I
>downloaded a file of all the sincerity postings, myself, because they
>were of particular interest.
>
>How does that sound to folks?
>
>Yours,
>
>habib rose
>host of tariqas
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 06:44:27 1996
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Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 17:44:27 +1100 (EST)
From: Fred Rice
Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
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Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullai wa barakatuh!
On Sun, 31 Dec 1995, Steve H Rose wrote:
> My hypothesis is that some of us, partly from being "Westerners," partly
> from our own psychological states, tend to approach spirituality from the
> point of individual experience -- and to be threatened by truly becoming
> part of a collective entity (afraid of losing our identity or control,
> perhaps). Others of us, partly from being from more traditional
> cultures, partly from our own psychological states, tend to approach
> spirituality from the collective/communcal point of view -- to see our
> growth as intricately related to the growth of others in our group, and
> perhaps to the leadership of a "master" -- and to be threatened by truly
> pursuing our individual experience (afraid of losing our identity as part
> of the group, or the control that comes from the group, perhaps).
>
> Whattyathink?
Hmmm... I definitely have come from a very "individualist" background.
Only recently, though (perhaps a bit over a month ago) have I started
attending dhikr with a Naqshbandi group. I personally have found with
this my own individualistic approach has started to melt away....
I know that when I perform dhikr out loud in a group (as this group does
twice a week), often I find myself in a state where the sounds of
"Allah Allah" contributed by every single person there drowns out in
a sense my own person and I feel I am covered and pierced by
"Allah Allah"... this is the best way I can describe it. From this
experience, I feel less "individualistic" when I am with this group
(but I still feel very "individualistic" with other people in general).
I hope this makes sense! :)
Also, everyone in this group is from a Turkish background, and in this
case all who attend the dhikr are men. I personally still do not feel
100% comfortable with all the hugging and kissing Turkish men indulge
in, but I am getting there! :) After Isha prayer (performed after the
dhikr), they do a beautiful thing... it is a method where everyone gets
to clasp everyone else's hands, and everyone feels closer.
(I am the only one there without a Turkish background, I've noticed....
I may have to learn Turkish, because both the Shaykh of this branch
of the Naqshbandi - Shaykh Mahmud Es'ad Cosan - and his representative
here don't speak English! Also, none of Shaykh Es'ad Cosan's books
have been translated either... but, of the 2 tariqas I know of here
in Melbourne, Australia, this is the one that *to me* seemed to
have more blessing, Allah knows best.)
Wassalam,
Fred
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 11:43:56 1996
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Date: Mon, 01 Jan 1996 22:43:56 +1100
From: D A Rice
Subject: Cyrano de Bergerac
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Cyrano de Bergerac was a man who was kind and gentle inside, but
was ugly looking on the outside. One day, he was just walking,
minding his own business, when a woman came up to him and began to
hurl insults at him for no reason, telling him how horrible and
ugly and evil he was. She hurled abuse on him for a long time, and
Cyrano was just standing patiently listening to it. When she was
finished, Cyrano de Bergerac just bowed to her and said, "And a
nice day to you."
Cyrano de Bergerac knew that all those words she said, which she
thought were the things she saw in him, were really a reflection of
herself.
This story was told by Shaikh Mahmud Es'ad Cosan (pronounced
"Joshan"), a present-day Shaikh of the Naqshbandi Order, as
translated to me from Turkish, during his visit to Australia in
Dec. 1995.
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 12:12:39 1996
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Date: Mon, 01 Jan 1996 23:12:39 +1100
From: D A Rice
Subject: Abu Yazid al-Bistami and the disciple + comment
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Abu Yazid al-Bistami and the disciple
There was a certain ascetic who was one of the great
saints of Bestam. He had his own followers and admirers,
and at the same time he was never absent from the circle
of Abu Yazid al-Bistami. He listened to all his discourses,
and sat with his companions.
One day he remarked to Abu Yazid, "Master, today is thirty
years that I have been keeping constant fast. By night too
I pray, so that I never sleep at all. Yet I discover no
trace of this knowledge of which you speak. For all that I
believe in this knowledge, and I love this preaching."
"If for three hundred years," said Abu Yazid, "you fast by
day and pray by night, you will never realize one atom of
this discourse."
"Why?" asked the disciple.
"Because you are veiled by your own self," Abu Yazid replied.
"What is the remedy for this?" the man asked.
"You will never accept it," answered Abu Yazid.
"I will so," said the man. "Tell me, so that I may do as you
prescribe."
"Very well," said Abu Yazid. "This very hour go and shave your
beard and hair. Take off these clothes you are wearing, and
tie a loincloth of goat's wool about your waist. Hang a bag
of nuts around your neck, then go to the marketplace. Collect
all the children you can, and tell them, `I will give a nut to
everyone who slaps me.' Go round all the city in the same way;
especially go everywhere people know you. That is your cure."
"Glory be to God! There is no god but God," cried the disciple
on hearing these words.
"If a nonbeliever uttered that formula, he would become a
believer," remarked Abu Yazid. "By uttering the same formula
you have become a polytheist."
"How so?" demanded the disciple.
"Because you count yourself too grand to be able to do as I have
said," replied Abu Yazid. "So you have become a polytheist.
You used this formula to express your own importance, not to
glorify God."
"This I cannot do," the man protested. "Give me other directions."
"The remedy is what I have said," Abu Yazid declared.
"I cannot do it," the man repeated.
"Did I not say you would not do it, that you would never obey
me?" said Abu Yazid.
[From the "Memorial of the Saints" of Fariduddin Attar.]
=======================================================================
My comment:
Recently, I spent a day with Shaykh Mahmud Es'ad Cosan, of the
Naqshbandi Sufi order. We (as a group) went on a picnic. During
that picnic, we were walking around with the Shaykh, when he
proceeded on to some playground equipment, and we followed him.
After pausing a short time, he motioned to one man, with his hands,
for him to slide down the slide. He hesitated, to be sure, and
upon receive confirmation he slid down the slide. Soon, we all
followed him down the slide, laughing hysterically at how silly
we all must have looked, a bunch of mature adults, from a boy
in his teens to people in their 50's, sliding down this children's
slide! After this, some of us (including me) spied one of those
twisting slides, and we raced up that and slid down! Meanwhile,
Shaykh Es'ad had gone to a kind of 4-way seesaw and began to
seesaw back and forth with 3 others!
My personal experience of this, was it broke some kind of barrier
in me. Often, as adults, we feel too "proud" to do something like
slide down a children's slide! But we have to break this pride in
ourselves, and rediscover the youthful fun-loving child within!
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 16:01:09 1996
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Date: Mon, 01 Jan 1996 09:01:09 -0700
From: Abdual Alim
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Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullai wa barakatuh!
I have just started my learning of the Sufi way three years ago and come
from a Westernerpoint of view. What I for the most part do not like
about the american way of spirituality is the sheepishly way people
following without question or looking for truth. For the most part
people her in american take the leaders information at face value and if
past examples of this do not have ending that I like. I without
question want to ask question talk about everything going on in my life
to include my dreams.
Wassalam,
Abdual Alim (Alan G. Keyes)
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 12:25:56 1996
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Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 12:26:56 +0001 (EST)
From: Steve H Rose
Subject: Re: Abu Yazid al-Bistami and the disciple + comment
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
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Assalamu alaikum.
Wonderful stories! (the disciple who was too proud to learn, the modern
day Shaykh who is teaching his students to play).
A true Shaykh is one who can identify the lessons needed by his/her
students, and give them as appropriate. These lessons often have to
do with attaining balance in our lives. Insh'Allah, we can all learn to
also identify and learn from those lessons given by the ultimate Shaykh
-- Allah.
Yours,
habib
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 12:43:55 1996
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Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 12:44:55 +0001 (EST)
From: Steve H Rose
Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
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On Mon, 1 Jan 1996, Abdual Alim wrote:
> Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullai wa barakatuh!
>
> I have just started my learning of the Sufi way three years ago and come
> from a Westernerpoint of view. What I for the most part do not like
> about the american way of spirituality is the sheepishly way people
> following without question or looking for truth. For the most part
> people her in american take the leaders information at face value and if
> past examples of this do not have ending that I like. I without
> question want to ask question talk about everything going on in my life
> to include my dreams.
>
There seem to often be apparent contradictions (paradoxes) in people's
nature. For example, Americans (and Westerners to some degree) think of
themselves as individualists, and are in some ways. However, they also
tend to be very susceptible to cults where they loose all their
individuality and critical thinking skills. Perhaps they are really seeking
balance? Is there a way of benefitting from positive aspects of a
relationship to a teacher and to membership in a tariqa without loosing
the ability to make independent judgements when necessary? Can
submitting to a teacher facilitate individual growth? Under what
conditions? Is individual growth the goal? When am I going to shut up
and allow others to answer my questions? :-)
Habib Rose
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 12:59:53 1996
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Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 13:00:53 +0001 (EST)
From: Steve H Rose
Subject: Please don't send carbon copys of messages to tariqas!
To: tariqas@world.std.com
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Assalamu alaikum.
Please try to be very careful not to send carbon copys (cc) of messages
to tariqas -- this results in duplication to everybody on the list.
Thanks!
habib rose
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 18:21:40 1996
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Date: Mon, 01 Jan 1996 13:21:40 -0500
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
From: James McCaig
Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth
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At 09:01 AM 1/1/96 -0700, Abdual Alim wrote:
>Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullai wa barakatuh!
>
>I have just started my learning of the Sufi way three years ago and come
>from a Westernerpoint of view. What I for the most part do not like
>about the american way of spirituality is the sheepishly way people
>following without question or looking for truth.
Try this way!
What is to be done O Moslems? for I do not recognize myself
I am neither Christian, nor Jew, nor Gabr , nor Moslem.
I am not of the East, nor of the West, nor of the land, nor of the sea;
I am not of nature's mint, nor of the circling heavens.
I am not of earth, nor of water, nor of air, nor of fire;
I am not of the empyrean, nor of the dust, nor of existence, nor of entity.
I am not of India, nor China, nor of Bulgaria, nor of Saqsin ;
I am not of the kingdom of Iraqain, nor of the country of Khorasan .
I am not of this world, nor of the next, nor of Paradise, nor of Hell;
I am not of Adam, nor of Eve, nor of Eden and Rizwan .
My place is the Placeless, my trace is the Traceless;
'Tis neither body nor soul, for I belong to the soul of the Beloved
Jallalludin Rumi
Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington
Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore
United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi
jmccaig@worldweb.net
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 18:21:43 1996
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Date: Mon, 01 Jan 1996 13:21:43 -0500
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
From: James McCaig
Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth
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At 09:01 AM 1/1/96 -0700, Abdual Alim wrote:
>Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullai wa barakatuh!
>
>I have just started my learning of the Sufi way three years ago and come
>from a Westernerpoint of view. What I for the most part do not like
>about the american way of spirituality is the sheepishly way people
>following without question or looking for truth. For the most part
>people her in american take the leaders information at face value and if
>past examples of this do not have ending that I like. I without
>question want to ask question talk about everything going on in my life
>to include my dreams.
>
OR TRY THIS WAY!
SONG OF THE SOUL
I am neither ego nor reason, I am neither mind nor thought,
I cannot be heard nor cast into words nor by smell nor sight ever caught:
In light and wind I am not found, nor yet in earth and sky -
Consciousness and joy incarnate, Bliss of the Blissful am I.
I have no name, I have no life, I breathe no vital air,
No elements have molded me, no bodily sheath is my lair;
I have no speech, no hands and feet, nor means of evolution -
Consciousness and joy am I, and bliss in dissolution.
I cast aside hatred and passion, I conquered delusion and greed;
No touch of pride caressed me, so envy never did breed;
Beyond all faiths, past reach of wealth, past freedom, past desire,
Consciousness and Joy am I, and bliss is my attire.
Virtue and vice, or pleasure and pain are not my heritage,
nor sacred texts, nor offerings, nor prayer, nor pilgrimage;
I am neither food, nor eating, nor yet the eater am I -
Consciousness and joy incarnate, Bliss of the Blissful am I.
I have no misgiving of death, no chasms of race divide me,
No parent ever called me child, no bond of birth ever tied me;
I am neither disciple nor master, I have no kin, no friend -
Consciousness and joy am I, and merging in Bliss is my end.
Neither knowable, knowledge, nor knower am I, formless is my form,
I dwell within the senses but they are not my home;
Ever serenely balanced, I am neither free nor bound -
Consciousness and joy am I, and Bliss is where I am found.
SANKARACHARYA
Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington
Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore
United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi
jmccaig@worldweb.net
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 22:06:35 1996
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From: ASHA101@aol.com
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Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 17:06:35 -0500
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To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: postings and individual/communal
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Dear Habib,
you strike an interesting note -
>>>Insh'Allah, tariqas can serve as a vehicle for us to learn to understand
and appreciate our different approaches to spiritual growth -- and our own
biases as well.<<<<
Insh'Allah, Tariqas does not become a competition for who can post the most
writting of their teacher, who who can honor their theacher the most! That to
me is individualism which carries no respect for any other individual. Maybe
this culture does value the individual freedom more highly than some other
cultures, I'm not sure that is bad at all. Perhaps the most difficult thing
to learn in excercising individual freedom is to respect the boundaries of
the Other. I put the word 'other' in caps, because the ultimate other is the
Divine Other, the acceptance of Whom leads to oneness, the domination of Whom
will keep one forever from oneness.
I think that your comment >>>it is the foundation
of tariqas that people share what they want (within the bounds of
Netiquette/Adab, Insh'Allah).<<< says this with great wisdom.
Also, you strike an interesting theme in posing the communal/individual
question. This dual focus may actually reveal, underlying these poles, core
values. I mean, individuality or comunality are not good or bad in themselves
but can be argued to be good or useful only with respect to value of which
they represent one pole.
One of these values is the value of freedom with respect to fulfilment,
unfoldment and purpose; the other is a value that is perhaps more Eastern,
could it be honor?
I think it can be shown that while freedom is valued in the East, it is
generally not a core vlaue there. I'm not positive what the more eastern
value is, and therefore not sure wether those in the west share it as a core
value or not. The point is, though, that in either case (honor or freedom)
obviously both a sense of comunality/hierarchy and individuality need to
exist and achieve a balance. Both, also, need thier boundaries.
Such arguments as clarity and heart, sucinctness and love, simply represent
these two poles and again both need to be present and in ballance inorder for
the underlying ideal to be truely alive. This is what sufis have allways
done, (to, more or less, quote a friend) when the sufis follow both the path
of faith (iman) and infidelity (kufr), prayer and spilling wine on the prayer
carpet, the God-ideal and shattering it, morality, piety and laughing at the
sanctimonious mullas with Nasruddin Hojja, experiencing the holy presence of
ancient masters and "a loaf of bread a book of verse and thou"
Asha
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 22:26:50 1996
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Date: Mon, 01 Jan 1996 16:26:50 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
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The problem for any individual, whether from an individualist or
communalist society, is learning that obedience and humility go together,
and that there is an elemental difference between submission and
submissiveness.
=Mackie Blanton=
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--
mfoster@tyrell.net has unsubscribed from tariqas.
No action is required on your part.
From Majordomo-Owner@world.std.com Tue Jan 2 16:09:27 1996
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From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 2 03:20:14 1996
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To: tariqas@world.std.com, gnosis@netcom.com
Cc: sufi@thinknet.com, cherag-l@sandelman.onix.on.ca
Subject: Free House
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In a message dated 95-12-30 21:36:33 EST, you write:
>Another Free house! This one in Northern Calif. The last one we
> put on this list will go to a Mureed in Seattle next week,
> Inshallah. This one is definitely NOT a fixer upper. It is in one of
>the nicest subdivisions and certainly best maintained PUDs.
>
>Hot Tub and private lake dock. With Cabana on the lake and one at
>the pool.
>2 Bdr 2 Bath in vacation area known as Clearlake in Lake county. This
> house was recently on the market for 99,000. The seller would
> pay moving and closing expenses for anyone interested in this well
>maintined clean clean home.
>No money down and payments could be as low as 500 per month. Will
>consider lease option also. This is aproximately one hour north of
> Santa Rosa.
>
>If you might be interested in something in your area let me
> know and I will look through the inventory. The next one we offer
>will be in Vallejo Calif. 15 minutes from San Raphael, Marin County
> and in the Northbay area of San Francisco, 45 Minutes from Berkely
and
>55 minutes from San Francisco. This could be a good communal
home.
> There are two others in Solano county and one possibly in
Sonoma
>County. contact Michael Gest here and phone is 707 829 3275.
>
>Free means that it is possible to buy this house with no money
> down and that you could have an automatic equity of atleast 10,000
>dollars that we will give as your down payment and you will have no
> closing costs.
>
>
>
>
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 2 16:58:21 1996
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From: NurLuna@aol.com
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Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 11:58:21 -0500
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To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth
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Greetings of Love and Light!
In a message dated 96-01-01, Mackie Blanton wrote:
> The problem for any individual, whether from an individualist or
>communalist society, is learning that obedience and humility go together,
>and that there is an elemental difference between submission and
>submissiveness.
As others have said, Westerners, Americans in particular, look askance at
anything or anyone suggesting that true freedom lies in submission, perhaps
more so than Easterners, perhaps not. Most of the so-called cults that take
hold here have a charismatic leader going his or her "own way", usually
against some sort of enemy which only s/he knows how to defeat, enlisting
other soldiers for the battle. This can be very attractive to the fanatically
individualistic American seeker! One reason why the cult of fundamentalism is
so rampant right now in Christianity, in my opinion.
I was intrigued by your last statement, friend Mackie. Perhaps you could
share with us your experience of the difference between submission and
submissiveness?
your sister Farrunnissa
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 2 16:58:18 1996
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From: NurLuna@aol.com
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To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: Re: posting of writings
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As-salaam aleikum, tariqas family! May blessings of Peace and Joy light your
new year!
I would vote for a Web page repository of brother Faoud's translations.
(Thank you, Brother, for your work of love!) Faoud could let us know when
there was new material available, and a little about the topic, in a posting
to tariqas. Those who don't have Web access could request an email copy if
they wanted to read it.
My continued thanks to brother Habib Rose for his gentle, centered, caring
stewardship of this mailing list. Ya Azim!
Farrunnissa
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 2 19:23:50 1996
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From: Jinavamsa@aol.com
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Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 14:23:50 -0500
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To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth
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hello Habib,
great questions.
I've never felt that you clogged the airwaves (bandwidth) with noise.
I always look forward to reading postings from you.
thanks
Jinavamsa
In a message dated 96-01-01 12:46:28 EST, you write:
> Perhaps they are really seeking
>balance? Is there a way of benefitting from positive aspects of a
>relationship to a teacher and to membership in a tariqa without loosing
>the ability to make independent judgements when necessary? Can
>submitting to a teacher facilitate individual growth? Under what
>conditions? Is individual growth the goal? When am I going to shut up
>and allow others to answer my questions? :-)
>
>Habib Rose
>
>
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From: Abdual Alim
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Subject: re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth
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I a whileago was a member of the Rosicrucian before I became a muslim
then s member of a sufi order. I was not happy with the group mindframe
that the Rosicucian which I did not seem to grow. I was toald about
this level of energy that I was to reach were I would have do dream
which would mean that I would have left my body and was in there realm
learning form them. I did not reach any new spirituality until I joined
with the sufi order and got away from my ego. I found real balance with
the Quran and other teaching given to me on this new path. I do feel
that I have overcome the question of relationship to teacher and
membership in a tariqa because it is based on a independent need for
growth without losing that this growth can only happen when one gives up
thier personal ego and find Allah love and path to Allah.
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 2 06:53:52 1996
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Date: Tue, 02 Jan 1996 01:53:52 -0500
To: tariqas@world.std.com
From: James McCaig
Subject: Re: Cyrano de Bergerac
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At 10:43 PM 1/1/96 +1100, D A Rice wrote:
>
>Cyrano de Bergerac was a man who was kind and gentle inside, but
>was ugly looking on the outside. One day, he was just walking,
>minding his own business, when
Attention is invited to the WEAVER magazine. One of the articles in past
months was about Cyrano de Bergerac by Hazrat Inayat Khan.
The URL for the magazine is: http://hyperlink.com:9000/weaver/
Many interesting articles and anicely designed.
Warm regards,
Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington
Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore
United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi
jmccaig@worldweb.net
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 2 20:33:37 1996
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Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 12:33:37 -0800
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
From: mhermans@mail.sdsu.edu (marcia hermansen)
Subject: Re: Free House
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Dear Michael,
Your postings about houses were very timely for me. I had been thinking of
contacting you because-in sha Allah-I want to get a living space in the Bay
Area.
I look forward to being in touch and discussing the matter further.
aw-s-salam, Marcia Hermansen
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 2 21:34:50 1996
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Date: Tue, 2 Jan 96 16:34:50 EST
From: johara@orie.cornell.edu (Johara Shahabuddin)
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To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth
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Dear everyone,
Salaam aleikum.
I think I am individualistic coz I feel apart from already formed
communities and have not been able to find myself a significant other
despite my years in this world...I like spending time alone to the
surprise and sometimes disapproval of friends (who think that spending
time with them will make me less `neurotic')...but I have a lovely
community of friends here around me, though its not religious,
its an intimate and fulfilling one.
Sometimes I find myself agreeing and sometimes disagreeing with
what a friend thinks, or speaking honestly or keeping my opinion
reserved, telling all or telling selectively...sometimes I act in
a way another wishes me to act against my intuition (trying not to
forsake my judgement but often quite automatically), and sometimes
disagreeing with them and saying nope, cant do that. And to me all these
decisions are somehow questions of submission.
Is submitting to one's teacher the only problem? I think that
each act of ours is in a greater `submission' or in blindness or in hypocrisy.
I dont have a teacher, but am being tortured by the `Submit' of the Book.
I feel that every time one makes a decision to follow the teacher
against one's own wishes and in suspension of rationality, one should
do so consciously...each such decision is a road to learning if carefully
considered before, after it is made. Submission that comes too
easily could be `hypocrisy', and if not carefully thought about and worked
through, could be `blindness'(submissiveness?). At least this is true for
me who is troubled by and thinks round and round in circles when faced with
contradictions in my thinking and my behaviour. I think there are no
people who can submit easily, or once and for all. The questions for all
of us may be different, but ignoring them makes the person regress
spiritually. I think one should take the question in hand and nurse
it, even while one makes decisions without having arised at its answer.
(I loved Paul's poem that seemed to be talking about this.)
But these contradictions within oneself and without: between oneself
and others- can take awfully long to be resolved and are painful if
one makes oneself stay awake and listen to them; so in
the meantime one just has to bear the pain of submission without
the answers. To me the only option to this awful pain is the awfuller one
to not do anything at all to get at having answers.
I read a book by Scott Peck about his experiments with community and
liked it, called A Different Drum. (Although I didnt like the `quick
community' that he seemed to be offering his clients who got together
for these experiments.) One idea he offers: he says that at first
when people get together, there is a false community feeling...everyone
is nice to one another and so on. And then slowly a boredom builds up
that leads to a low energy, depressive state for the community...because
differences that arise are being trivially discarded...and slowly this
builds up into a stage of conflict where if the conflict is worked
through and resolved, there arrives a sense of true community. He perceives
this process to be more accepting of individuals in the `true community'
stage, and leads to growth of the individuals in it...whereas if a group
is stuck in the initial `false' stage, then individuality tends to be lost.
There must be some people out there who have read this work already
so I apologise if I have repeated something they already know. I think
this addresses submissiveness too.
This is my perspective...and I'm looking forward to others writing
about all this, so I can find a cleaner one...
Johara
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 2 23:11:51 1996
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02 Jan 1996 17:11:51 -0600 (CST)
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 1996 17:11:51 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
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Johara's recent posting (2-Jan-1996 16:03:40:80) nicely typifies
not only the concundrum we find ourselves in when we forget that obedience
and humility are a pair, and the conundrum that we find ourselves in we
don't distinguish between submission and submissiveness--she seems to be
self-reflective enough to know when she is losing humility and when she
just can't seem to submit. Her text is worth saving.
In English we have the one verb *to submit*. So we tend to conflate
the two nouns that we can form from this verb, submission and submissiveness,
as if they were synonymous. But they are not, even though they will translate
back into Arabic as *'abd*. Understanding the difference amounts to be able
to feel willingly like a servant and against our will like a slave. The Book
asks us to submit to Allah, to give The Holy One Blessed Be He our complete
sumission, to be His servant. Having given us a free will, God does not,
apparently (Inshallah), expect for us to slavishly submit to His Will, to give
Him unthinking submissiveness.
Within islam, this distinction can often be lost or obscured just
because Islam makes no distinction between a sin and a crime. Hence, because
a sin is also a crime, and because severe crimes demand severe punishment,
sins also demand and require severe punishment, especially, for example,
apostasy. Individualist Westerners often view this conflation of sin and
crime as undemocratic, which means that even if they are Sufis who emrace
The holy Qur'aan, ghey may not be Sufis who embrace the Sharia. Their
Western orientation does not make it easy from them to see the difference
between being a servant of God and His Kalaam and being a slave. In
monotheism, when you are a servant, you are a servant *of* and *to* God.
This quality that is asked of you is one that also asks you to understand
that obdience requires humility of individualist spirit.
Humility + Obedience means that we understand that we should not
put ourselves above our teacher--even when we sense something askew in a
teacher's request, requirement, lesson, desire.
The problem here, of course, lies in being able to discern the
difference between authentic belief and a cultic practice. This offers
a challenge to Sufism, which to many seems to lack authentic Orthodoxy. So
how can we demonstrate that Ibn 'Arabi is as Orthodox as the Prophet (PBUH),
who understood obdience, humility, and submission well enough never to put
themselves--nor their soul, nor the soul of their soul--above The Godhead?
=Mackie Blanton=
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Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 15:14:05 -0800
From: mmoore@antares.Tymnet.COM (Michael J. Moore)
Message-Id: <9601022314.AA00409@kirin.Tymnet.COM>
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth
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> I dont have a teacher, but am being tortured by the `Submit' of the Book.
What do you mean?, Which book? How can a Book torture you?
> The questions for all
> of us may be different, but ignoring them makes the person regress
> spiritually.
Surely on the path we must ignore all questions and we must regress
spiritually. Blessed are the poor in spirit..........
To entertain a question implies that you believe you have an
answer. We have nothing. Even this statement is wrong.
I suggest you find a teacher and don't listen to my advice.
> This is my perspective...and I'm looking forward to others writing
> about all this, so I can find a cleaner one...
> Johara
>
-michael-
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 3 00:04:44 1996
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From: Jinavamsa@aol.com
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Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 19:04:44 -0500
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To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: Re Teachers [was Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth]
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dear Johara, Mackie, Michael, and others,
Re this question of submissive vs. submission, I find this discussion very
good in that it is is raising more questions than giving answers.
Let me raise some comments in context, below. I'll precede them by @@ to mark
them out. I am asking these not to criticize but to learn of your thinking
more clearly (and so to be able to apply them more helpfully in the context
of a spiritual life).
Jinavamsa
CONSIDERING POST 1 of 2 RELATED POSTS:
In a message dated 96-01-02 18:15:16 EST, you write:
>Subj: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth
>Date: 96-01-02 18:15:16 EST
>From: MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu
>To: tariqas@europe.std.com
> Johara's recent posting (2-Jan-1996 16:03:40:80) nicely typifies
>not only the concundrum we find ourselves in when we forget that obedience
>and humility are a pair, and the conundrum that we find ourselves in we
>don't distinguish between submission and submissiveness--she seems to be
>self-reflective enough to know when she is losing humility and when she
>just can't seem to submit. Her text is worth saving.
> In English we have the one verb *to submit*. So we tend to conflate
>the two nouns that we can form from this verb, submission and
submissiveness,
>as if they were synonymous. But they are not, even though they will
>translate
>back into Arabic as *'abd*. Understanding the difference amounts to be able
>to feel willingly like a servant and against our will like a slave. The
Book
@@I was expecting to find you cite two Arabic verbs that would aid you in
differentiating between the (putative) two senses you are trying to separate
here.
>asks us to submit to Allah, to give The Holy One Blessed Be He our complete
>sumission, to be His servant. Having given us a free will, God does not,
>apparently (Inshallah), expect for us to slavishly submit to His Will, to
>give Him unthinking submissiveness.
@@Does this mean that you take Him (I thought Allah was a noun that had no
plural and did not stand as either a masculine or a feminine, but that's a
secondary issue here.) to be expecting us to give Him "thinking
submissiveness". That may be, and if so, I would be interested to learn more
of what this "thinking submissiveness" is. That would make the key contrast
here in the two senses to be the difference between acting thinkingly vs.
doing so unthinkingly (to make up two adverbs for this situation). Is that
your point?
> Within islam, this distinction can often be lost or obscured just
>because Islam makes no distinction between a sin and a crime. Hence,
because
>a sin is also a crime, and because severe crimes demand severe punishment,
>sins also demand and require severe punishment, especially, for example,
@@The importance and severe consequences of this assumption about the
"demand" for severe punishment cannot be played with lightly.
>apostasy. Individualist Westerners often view this conflation of sin and
>crime as undemocratic, which means that even if they are Sufis who emrace
@@ I don't see what's either democratic or undemocratic about the equation of
sin and crime (or their conflation, as you express it). What supposed
confusion are you alluding to here?
>The holy Qur'aan, ghey [=they?] may not be Sufis who embrace the Sharia.
Their
>Western orientation does not make it easy from them to see the difference
>between being a servant of God and His Kalaam and being a slave. In
@@so this would be a good place to make clear what that difference is, in
what it consists of, for those of "Western orientation" that do not see this
clearly yet.
>monotheism, when you are a servant, you are a servant *of* and *to* God.
>This quality that is asked of you is one that also asks you to understand
>that obdience requires humility of individualist spirit.
> Humility + Obedience means that we understand that we should not
>put ourselves above our teacher--even when we sense something askew in a
>teacher's request, requirement, lesson, desire.
@@ Is this based on an equation of the will of Allah with the instructions
from a teacher?
> The problem here, of course, lies in being able to discern the
>difference between authentic belief and a cultic practice. This offers
>a challenge to Sufism, which to many seems to lack authentic Orthodoxy. So
>how can we demonstrate that Ibn 'Arabi is as Orthodox as the Prophet (PBUH),
>who understood obdience, humility, and submission well enough never to put
>themselves--nor their soul, nor the soul of their soul--above The Godhead?
@@I think this issue has been touched upon earlier last year (1995), but in
this context, let me ask: Given the weightiness of this form of
Godhead-liness (or Truth, if I can use that word without having my hands and
feet cut off `a la Mansour), the issue on some very practical level becomes
this: how is it that governments run by human beings take it upon themselves
to carry out their interpretation of the way Allah would read a given
situation? and this, with the confidence to be ready to end human life and
intervene in other rather intense ways with the lives of those it sees, as
you put it, as "committing crimes aka sinning"?
>=Mackie Blanton=
CONSIDERING POST 2 of 2 RELATED POSTS:
In a message dated 96-01-02 18:16:43 EST, you write:
>Subj: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth
>Date: 96-01-02 18:16:43 EST
>From: mmoore@antares.Tymnet.COM (Michael J. Moore)
>To: tariqas@europe.std.com
>> I dont have a teacher, but am being tortured by the `Submit' of the Book.
>What do you mean?, Which book? How can a Book torture you?
>> The questions for all of us may be different, but ignoring them makes the
person >> regress spiritually.
>Surely on the path we must ignore all questions and we must regress
>spiritually. Blessed are the poor in spirit..........
@@ I find this difficult to follow. Are the two of you talking about the same
sense of spiritual regress? I had the feeling that there was a big shift
happening here.
>To entertain a question implies that you believe you have an
>answer. We have nothing. Even this statement is wrong.
@@Is this suggesting that it is wrong to entertain questions?
>I suggest you find a teacher and don't listen to my advice.
@@ If the question is about what this entire process is, and what is the best
(most authentic, yearning for the Truth, not "unthinking" [as per above post]
submissiveness, your suggestion reads more like a wish that Johara not have
the question she/he has, than an answer that would aid her/him in resolving
whatever issues or concerns are being expressed in the original post here.
Or am I misreading you?
>> This is my perspective...and I'm looking forward to others writing
>> about all this, so I can find a cleaner one...
>> Johara
>>
>-michael-
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Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 17:32:26 -0800
From: mmoore@antares.Tymnet.COM (Michael J. Moore)
Message-Id: <9601030132.AA00475@kirin.Tymnet.COM>
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: Re: Re Teachers [was Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth]
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>> I dont have a teacher, but am being tortured by the `Submit' of the Book.
> >What do you mean?, Which book? How can a Book torture you?
> >> The questions for all of us may be different, but ignoring them makes the
> person >> regress spiritually.
> >Surely on the path we must ignore all questions and we must regress
> >spiritually. Blessed are the poor in spirit..........
>
> @@ I find this difficult to follow.
Exactly my point!
> Are the two of you talking about the same
> sense of spiritual regress?
I think so, only I am also point out that any feeling of spiritual progress
is also spiritual regress and only true spiritual regress can lead to
spiritual progress.
>I had the feeling that there was a big shift
> happening here.
You are very astute.
>
> >To entertain a question implies that you believe you have an
> >answer. We have nothing. Even this statement is wrong.
>
> @@Is this suggesting that it is wrong to entertain questions?
Wrong towards what end? Will entertaining questions please Allah?
I doubt it. And if it is not for the pleasure of Allah, what
good is it?
Nobody has ever found answers of what lies beyond the illusion by
entertaining questions. Questions themselves only exist within
the illusion and can only result in answers that have meaning
within the illusion. I assume that we are not talking about mundane
questions and answers. By stopping all questions you can find
the truth.
>
> >I suggest you find a teacher and don't listen to my advice.
>
> @@ If the question is about what this entire process is, and what is the best
> (most authentic, yearning for the Truth, not "unthinking" [as per above post]
> submissiveness, your suggestion reads more like a wish that Johara not have
> the question she/he has, than an answer that would aid her/him in resolving
> whatever issues or concerns are being expressed in the original post here.
> Or am I misreading you?
>
You nailed it.
-michael-
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 3 03:52:21 1996
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Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 19:52:21 -0800
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From: olh@hyperback.com (Bob Olhsson)
Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth
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At 12:33 PM 12/31/95, Steve H Rose wrote:
>Assalamu alaikum.
...
>My hypothesis is that some of us, partly from being "Westerners," partly
>from our own psychological states, tend to approach spirituality from the
>point of individual experience -- and to be threatened by truly becoming
>part of a collective entity (afraid of losing our identity or control,
>perhaps). Others of us, partly from being from more traditional
>cultures, partly from our own psychological states, tend to approach
>spirituality from the collective/communcal point of view -- to see our
>growth as intricately related to the growth of others in our group, and
>perhaps to the leadership of a "master" -- and to be threatened by truly
>pursuing our individual experience (afraid of losing our identity as part
>of the group, or the control that comes from the group, perhaps).
We are, in truth, always both individuals and collective societies. The key
is to "grow" our identity to encompass both aspects rather than denying one
or the other. There can be no alternative to Allah's entire truth no matter
how hard we try to define ourselves as being less than that by identifying
with our differences rather than with our commonality.
Bob
Bob Olhsson Audio | O tongue, thou art a
olh@hyperback.com | treasure without end.
P.O. Box 555 | And, O tongue, thou art also a
Novato, CA 94948-0555 | disease without remedy.
415.457.2620 |
415.456.1496 FAX | == Jelal'uddin Rumi ==
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Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 19:52:21 -0800
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From: olh@hyperback.com (Bob Olhsson)
Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth
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At 12:33 PM 12/31/95, Steve H Rose wrote:
>Assalamu alaikum.
...
>My hypothesis is that some of us, partly from being "Westerners," partly
>from our own psychological states, tend to approach spirituality from the
>point of individual experience -- and to be threatened by truly becoming
>part of a collective entity (afraid of losing our identity or control,
>perhaps). Others of us, partly from being from more traditional
>cultures, partly from our own psychological states, tend to approach
>spirituality from the collective/communcal point of view -- to see our
>growth as intricately related to the growth of others in our group, and
>perhaps to the leadership of a "master" -- and to be threatened by truly
>pursuing our individual experience (afraid of losing our identity as part
>of the group, or the control that comes from the group, perhaps).
We are, in truth, always both individuals and collective societies. The key
is to "grow" our identity to encompass both aspects rather than denying one
or the other. There can be no alternative to Allah's entire truth no matter
how hard we try to define ourselves as being less than that by identifying
with our differences rather than with our commonality.
Bob
Bob Olhsson Audio | O tongue, thou art a
olh@hyperback.com | treasure without end.
P.O. Box 555 | And, O tongue, thou art also a
Novato, CA 94948-0555 | disease without remedy.
415.457.2620 |
415.456.1496 FAX | == Jelal'uddin Rumi ==
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 3 03:52:09 1996
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Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 19:52:09 -0800
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
From: olh@hyperback.com (Bob Olhsson)
Subject: Re: posting of writings
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I, for one, would rather see more stories posted from various orders as
fuel for discussion as long as it is clearly titled as such. I do far
better being presented with a passage than I do going looking for one. The
bandwidth and attention involved is trivial compared to the kind of delete
key effort that "feel-good" and "me-too" conversational trivia requires. It
is true that there has been little discussion lately but that is the simple
result of what the rest of us have failed to do!
>On Thu, 28 Dec 1995, Abdkabir wrote:
>
>> I heartily second the motion expressed below by Asha. If people cannot
>> afford the books, then Faoud should once a month say, limit his messages
>> regarding book chapters to merely announcing that such materials are
>> available at their web site. This usual Naqsbandi-Nazim aggressiveness in
>> advertising their "sheik" by dumping bandwidth-eating book chapters onto
>> this group with such tedious regularity ought not to be tolerated by the
>> sponser of this list, unless he has changed his mission statement, which
>> we should be informed about if he has. It seems the more we have been
>> silent about Faoud's data dumping practices, the more he appears
>> emboldened to increase the size and frequency of the dumps...and
>> undoubtedly giving the impression, especially to new subscribers of this
>> group, that its primary purpose is to serve as a free advertisng medium
>> for the writings of Sheik Nazim and extending, with locust-like
>> persistance, the reach of his followers.
>>
Bob Olhsson Audio | O tongue, thou art a
olh@hyperback.com | treasure without end.
P.O. Box 555 | And, O tongue, thou art also a
Novato, CA 94948-0555 | disease without remedy.
415.457.2620 |
415.456.1496 FAX | == Jelal'uddin Rumi ==
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 3 05:18:22 1996
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From: JHulvey@aol.com
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Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 00:18:22 -0500
Message-Id: <960103001741_30312138@mail02.mail.aol.com>
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Cc: JHulvey@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re Teachers [was Re: Indi...
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Ironically, when you tell a person there is no room for a question, you are
providing a answer to a question that they didn't ask (of you).
I feel that a question that is held honestly and openly in the heart may be
better than thinking one knows the answer if one's closure is premature, even
if that answer is about questions, by which presumably is meant all
questions. (Sorry if this sounds like an answer -- it's more of a question
though you may have to take my word on that.)
>From my last notes to the list, one might think I am stuck on the Moses and
Khidr story, and maybe that's so. In that story, though, I don't remember
Khidr telling Moses he couldn't (at least privately)
entertain questions -- just not ask for or demand answers that would
interfere with Khidr's work. To me there is a subtle difference --as usual I
can't articulate it!
I am reminded of John Keats' term "Negative Capability", which he defines as
"when man is capable of being in uncertainties. Mysteries, doubts, without
any irritable reaching after fact and reason."
Perhaps this is what Moses needed a bit more of
Perhaps this irritable reaching is what there is no room for
If a person is without a teacher, then she must ask of herself what
does God require of me? Just how can I submit to God's will?
How can I recognize it? These are questions which she may not be able to
answer in words....but perhaps attention and openness might happen because of
having asked one's self. This seems necessary, at least right now....
Fondly and respectfully,
Julie H.
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 3 05:58:20 1996
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From: MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu
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02 Jan 1996 23:58:20 -0600 (CST)
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 1996 23:58:20 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
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When someone admonishes us for having questions, and then attempts
to out-God God by assuming to know that questions displease God, I then know
that I am in the midst of someone
who does not believe in free will
who believes that God prefers slaves to servants
who will treat others as slaves to his own will (which he
assumes to be the same as God's)
who does not understand that Allah being who Allah is,
Allah's Wisdom, therefore, requires a diversity of
expressions
who assumes that the Prophets Companions already asked all the
questions to be posed
who assumes that Sunnah and Hadith cannot engender in us more
questions so that we may find more answers
who confuses finders with aimless seekers
who would not make a good sheykh.
=Mackie Blanton=
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 3 13:49:38 1996
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Date: 03 Jan 96 08:49:38 EST
From: Sufi Order <75166.1770@compuserve.com>
To: PE
Subject: Re: Fwd: Sufi Order of the West (fwd)
Message-Id: <960103134937_75166.1770_CHR151-4@CompuServe.COM>
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-- [ From: Sufi Order * EMC.Ver #2.03 ] --
> Forwarded message:
> From: paneagle@peoples.net (Wm. Whitney)
> Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com
> Reply-to: tariqas@europe.std.com
> To: tariqas@world.std.com (Tariqas)
> Date: 95-12-30 12:16:20 EST
>
> -- [ From: Wm. Whitney * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --
>
> Would someone be so kind as to forward contact information for the Sufi
> Order of the West?.... both smail and email if possible. Thanks.
>
> PE
Dear PE,
Our mailing address is Sufi Order North American Secretariat, PO Box 30065
Seattle WA 98103. Our E-mail address is 75166,177@Compuserve.com. Phone 1-
206-782-2001
In Europe:
Sufi Order International
C/O Zahir Roehrs
23 rue de la Tulierie
92150 Suresnes
France
Much Light,
Ma'abud
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 3 16:47:03 1996
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From: omegapub@taconic.net
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Date: Wed, 3 Jan 96 08:47:03 PST
Subject: asking questions
To: tariqas@world.std.com
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Perhaps this brief quotation from Rilke's Letters to a Young Poet
will be useful in the discussion about the value of questions:
"...to have patience with everything unresolved in your heart and to
try to love the questions themselves as if they were locked rooms or
books written in a very foreign language. Don't search for the
answers, which could not be given to you now, because you would not
be able to live them. And the point is, to live everything. Live the
questions now. Perhaps then, someday far in the future, you will
gradually, without even noticing it, live your way into the answer."
(Translation by Stephen Mitchell)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Abi'l-Khayr
E-mail: omegapub@taconic.net
Date: 01/03/96 Time: 08:47:03
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 3 16:31:53 1996
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Date: Wed, 3 Jan 96 11:31:53 EST
From: johara@orie.cornell.edu (Johara Shahabuddin)
Message-Id: <9601031631.AA05261@orie.cornell.edu>
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth
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Hi Michael,
Thanks for your mail. Sorry not interested in the personal. Its
funny and strange of me to mention that bit in my mail, but it
just sort of came as a justification for calling myself individualistic.
By the way, I found your reply quite strange. I think you
are being deliberately dense...but in case you really dont understand
what I said, please say so, and I'll apologize for my interpretation.
>
>
>> I dont have a teacher, but am being tortured by the `Submit' of the Book.
>
>What do you mean?, Which book? How can a Book torture you?
This is just a phrase to say that the Quran bothers me and puts
questions to me. Its a bit hi-fi to say it this way. Sorry about that.
>
>> The questions for all
>> of us may be different, but ignoring them makes the person regress
>> spiritually.
>
>Surely on the path we must ignore all questions and we must regress
>spiritually. Blessed are the poor in spirit..........
>To entertain a question implies that you believe you have an
>answer. We have nothing. Even this statement is wrong.
>
You are right...to entertain a question is to some level a belief
that its answer exists. But I cant get rid of questions and to me
it seems most humans are stuck with them.
>I suggest you find a teacher and don't listen to my advice.
>
Do you have a teacher? Do you listen to your advice ie. do you
have no questions? If you do, what do you do with them?
Much regards,
Johara.
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>From habib@world.std.com Wed Jan 3 14:52:18 1996
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unsubscribe tariqas
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 3 21:41:15 1996
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Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 16:41:15 -0500
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To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: Questions, and my experience so far
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Dear Johara,
The response to questions by many teachers is not to deny the question. If
fact, for many, to dissuade you from asking questions or even questioning the
teacher would be quite unethical. What is asked is that not that one should
suspend questions but that one might somehow suspend argument. In otherwords,
if you do not agree with the teacher, then, rather than pressing your
argument or even question, just forget what she or he said. (even forget the
Quran if it bothers you - it is not the Quran that is worth learnig it is
what is behind the Quran that is worth anything, just like a teachers words)
That is why when some teachers will, if you begin asking questions about a
certain subject, simpy cease speaking of the subject.
The theory (as I understand it) is, that if you can just keep quiet for a
while and let your own realizations occur that maybe what makes no sense now
will, later on. But that if you have different realizations then maybe you
will teach them and they will be quiet and not ask too many questions.
Realizations come as the fruit in the fall, if you work hard but don't mess
with the crop too much. Nurturance is more valuable than engineering in this
case. Asking questions is like engineering (which isn't all bad) but living
with them is like nurturance and also keeps you on your gaurd which is also
much needed.
And why stay with someone for years and years if you are silent all the
time because nothing they say makes any sense? I guess because you are
attracted to them or something about them. Maybe they wear a nice hat, or you
like the community. It is simple and this simplicity is the most important
thing.
On the other hand the questions are the light of a fire. You don't let them
go, you just remove them a little ways away, at least, temporarily. Perhaps
later the question will go away but the fire remains. The fire of the
question without the question (it is a lovely state) reveals itself to be
yourself most purely and in such beauty. But that is not to say one shouldn't
ask questions, just that it is worth watching the desire behind the question
also. And, it is to say, that if the answer doesn't suit you, don't make a
big deal out of it, in fact, forget it.
Being quiet is not the same as blind faith. The only time a teacher ever
asks you for blind faith is after they have proven their own faith in you so
much that you have complete faith in yourself, which may only come after
years of giving themselves in trust to you, and even then they probably
won't really do it but it is just that you wouldn't mind by then because you
know that it is you who must take care not to break the vulnerable vessel
that is your teacher. That is my experience anyway.
Asha
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Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 12:21:12 -0800
From: mateens@sybase.com (Mateen Siddiqui)
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To: tariqas@world.std.com
Subject: fwd: msa: NEWS: Arabs consume uranium food and water (fwd)
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To: msa@htm3.ee.queensu.ca
Subject: msa: NEWS: Arabs consume uranium food and water
Hdate: Saturday 8 SHa`baan 1416 A.H.
Number: msa/30Dec95/20882
Bismillah Walhamdulillah Was Salaatu Was Salaam 'ala Rasulillah
Saturday 30 December 1995, London-UK
From: Parveez Syed
Global Media Monitoring
Shanti Communications
One Stuart Road, Thornton Heath, Surrey CR7 8RA1 UK
Tel: London-UK 44-0831-196693
Fax: 44-0181-665 0384
E-Mail INTERNET: PARVEEZ@CR78RA1UK.WIN-UK.NET
Friendly Gulf assault uranium food and water!
reviewed-edited by Parveez Syed, Shanti GMM
Millions of people in the Middle East are set to consume uranium
infested food and water. For those of us that had friends or
loved ones who were in Iraq - as well as those of us who care
about the people that still have to live in the area - the
following may prove useful.
After the treatment vets got over the Agent Orange claims, we
doubt anybody would believe the military / VA ******* about
denying responsibility for illnesses among Gulf assault vets
anyway. In any event, you might want to save this for future
reference for the alleged Gulf experts you may come in contact
with in the West and elsewhere.
INTERVIEW FROM: (c) NEW DAWN (34) Jan/Feb 1996.
DEPLETED URANIUM: DEAD CHILDREN, SICK SOLDIERS
The UN-authorised, U.S.-led war against Iraq officially ended in
March 1991, or so it seemed. In previous issues of New Dawn we
reported on the genocidal effects of the continuing UN embargo on
the people of Iraq. We also drew attention to the plight of
thousands of Iraqis and allied war veterans who are victims of
radiation poisoning.
The use of Depleted Uranium (DU) armour piercing shells by U.S.
forces in the 1991 Gulf War was uncovered by the German
professor, Dr. Siegwart-Horst Gunther. A survivor of world war
and internment in a Nazi concentration camp, Dr. Gunther is a
tireless campaigner in the struggle to highlight the
little-reported and ongoing human suffering resulting from the
Gulf War. Recently at an international conference David Muller,
President of the South Movement, Australia interviewed Prof.
Siegwart-Horst Gunther, President of Yellow Cross International,
for New Dawn.
DAVID MULLER: Professor, I gather that Depleted Uranium is a
by-product of the nuclear enrichment industry. Is this correct?
PROF. GUNTHER: Uranium ore, as found in nature, is a compound
which consists for the most part, of the isotope 238 and about
0.70% of the isotope 235. Now, as the isotope 235 alone is
fissionable and hence of use for the reactors, the uranium ore,
poor in that element, must be enriched. Such a process involves
masses of material and creates consequently huge quantities of
depleted uranium (composed mostly of the sole isotope 238).
DAVID MULLER: Why did the U.S. use Depleted Uranium shells in the
Gulf War?
PROF. GUNTHER: Depleted Uranium possesses characteristics which
make it very attractive for the weapon technology :
* It is the heaviest element occurring, so to say, naturally
on earth: 1 cm3 weighs 18.95 grams;
* Possibly related to a German technology, because of its
density, uranium tipped projectiles have a very high
penetrating power. DU is best suited for the production of
ammunition to break through steel armours;
* Moreover it is a naturally pyphoric material. After
penetration, so much heat develops at the exit point, that
DU particles catch fire. A hit tank, for instance,
explodes releasing highly toxic and radioactive products;
* After experiences during the Gulf War, since 1992, U.S. tanks
are getting increased strengthening, all around, by DU.
These U.S. tanks are ironically called Radiation Deponents.
DAVID MULLER: Professor you were one of the first people to
expose to the world that the U.S. had used Depleted Uranium in
the Gulf War. How did you make this discovery?
PROF. GUNTHER: I found on the 7th of May, 1991 on the highway
between Baghdad and Amman, in the desert, projectiles in the form
and size of a cigar, which retained my attention, because of
their unusual appearance and weight. In that region, columns of
refugees, aid transports and others had been submitted to attack
by A-10 planes equipped with this type of ammunition.
DAVID MULLER: That's a long way from the tank battles on the
Kuwait border. So you found an unexploded shell fired from a U.S.
Warthog ground attack plane that attacked traffic on the way to
Jordan?
PROF. GUNTHER: Yes. Later on I happened to see children playing
with these projectiles. A little girl who possessed 12 of them
died of leukaemia. Also in the children hospitals of Baghdad,
Mosul and Basrah the number of leukaemia, aplastic anaemia and
tumour development is noticeably on the increase. Moreover a new
up-to-date undiagnosed disease is seen with abnormal abdominal
distension possibly related to disturbed liver and kidney
functions. Because of the impossibility of treatment the children
die, most painfully from secondary infections.
DAVID MULLER: I believe that you took one of the DU shells back
to Germany for analysis ?
PROF. GUNTHER: The possible relation to German technology
prompted me to take one bullet to be analysed by four German
institutions. The bullet under examination exhibited a
radioactivity of 11 to 12 microsivert per hour and was highly
toxic. Because of its danger the projectile was seized by German
police in special protective clothing and transported to a safe
place. In radiology in Germany, personnel should not be exposed
to more than 50 millisivert per year.
DAVID MULLER: What are the short term and long term effects of DU
contamination in Iraq?
PROF. GUNTHER: From my own observations in Iraq, the long term
effect of contact with DU results in the breakdown of the immune
system. Other effects noticed have been:
* Many infectious diseases, with serious complications are on
the increase. Sometimes diseases break out which are known
in Europe only through text books;
* Herpes infections, Zoster infections and AIDS-like symptoms
are dramatically on the increase, all of them possibly
related to the breakdown of the immune system;
* Premature births are numerous. Congenital malformations of
the newborn show a high postwar percentage (26.8% according
to Dept. of Pathology, College of Medicine, University of
Baghdad). In the countryside, children die in great numbers
and are buried without possibility of diagnosis;
* During the lambing season in 1993 a high percentage (10%
according to IPA Agricultural Research Center) of abnormal
newborn lambs have been observed. Most of them died a few
days after birth.
DAVID MULLER: U.S. authorities closed a DU penetrator ammunition
factory on the edge of Albany, in upstate New York because of air
borne contamination levels exceeded 150 microcurie per month
contaminating populated areas up to 26 miles away. This was the
equivalent of 1 or 2 of these 30mm canon shells per month releasing
its toxicity to the environment. We can only guess at the toxicity
levels in Iraq when the Desert Storm 100 hour ground offensive
exploded some 40 tonnes of these DU shells.
PROF. GUNTHER: According to American Greenpeace, documents
released under the Freedom of Information Act, indicate that the
Allied Forces would have left 300 tons of DU on the battle fields
between Kuwait and Iraq, mostly in the form of toxic and
radioactive dust. Much of the uranium dust has been scattered
about thousands of square miles of desert. As the Gulf region has
a rainy season, it is feared that uranium particles get at one
time or the other into the ground water and finally reach the
food chain. Highly toxic uranium dust, if inhaled, can result in
lung cancer. Many DU projectiles spread over the battle fields
have been collected by children and used as toys with possibly
devastating consequences.
The toxic nature of DU contamination is highlighted with the U.S.
Department of Defence erecting a highly secret $4 million
facility in Barnwall, South Carolina just to detoxify 22 military
vehicles hit by friendly fire. Some of the vehicles are so badly
contaminated that they have had to bury them.
DAVID MULLER: The Walter Reed Army Medical Centre in the United
States tested Gulf War veterans suffering from Desert Storm
Syndrome for radiation toxicity following Gulf War veteran
outrage and Congressional pressure.
PROF. GUNTHER: My observations of the effects of DU contamination
in Iraq show a similarity described in the so-called
Gulf-War-Syndrome of U.S. and British soldiers in Kuwait.
Right now one hears about odd ailments among Gulf War veterans
from the U.S., which could possibly be attributed to contact with
DU. One hears about hair loss, skin disease, damage to different
organs etc. Even pregnant women are giving birth to crippled
children. Many of these effects had remained unknown to the
public. Newspapers recorded that a U.S. staff-sergeant held the
view that many soldiers now felt uncertain and fear that they may
have been used as Guinea-Pigs in a radiation experiment.
Laura Flanders recently reported in the Nation magazine on a U.S.
Veterans Administration state-wide survey of 251 Gulf War
veterans families in Mississippi. Of their children conceived
and born since the war, 67% have illnesses related to severe or
missing eyes, missing ears, blood infections, respiratory
problems and fused fingers.
DAVID MULLER: Which companies are still manufacturing DU
weaponry?
PROF. GUNTHER: Different types of DU ammunition have been
manufactured in the U.S. by Honeywell, Aerojet and others, the
mass-production began in 1977. DU penetrators were extensively
used for the first time during late in the Gulf War in 1991, with
impressive results. At present there exists also mass-production
in Britain and France and the export to other NATO countries, as
well as to Japan, Australia and New Zealand are not excluded.
DAVID MULLER: Professor, Australia exports Uranium Yellow cake to
Europe ostensibly for peaceful purposes. From what I understand
from your speech you see collusion between commercial enrichment
plants and the military?
PROF. GUNTHER: Yes, it is a question of cutting costs. Generally
speaking, because of their toxicity and radioactivity, wastes
from the uranium industry are in Europe deposited in salt
galleries. These wastes must be safely deposited for a very long
period of time. Such deposition processes seem to be extremely
expensive. So, to save money, the uranium industry are giving
depleted uranium, free of charge, to institutions or others, who
are interested in it.
DAVID MULLER: One final question! I noticed that you are
circulating a petition about Depleted Uranium. What is the
purpose of your organisation Yellow Cross?
PROF. GUNTHER: Yellow Cross International makes a vehement appeal
for the total ban of using DU ammunition as well as the newly
developed laser weapons provoking irreparable damage to the eyes.
Since 1991 I have been constantly warning about the DU dangers
for the populations. Unfortunately at that time only few people
believed me. Also in Iraq!
* Readers wishing to know more about Prof. Gunther's humanitarian
work may write to: Yellow Cross International, Schlo Lichtenau,
Austria.
EDITORIAL NOTES:
RISE IN CONGENITAL DEFECTS REPORTED AMONG CHILDREN IN IRAQ
IRAQ, BAGHDAD - A recent survey by the Ministry of Health has
registered a noticeable rise in congenital defects and a sharp
rise in mortality rates among children and aged people because of
the sharp shortages of food, medicines, and medical supplies. A
source at the Ministry of Health said the rate of newborn babies
whose weight below 2.5 kilograms has also sharply increased by
4.5 per cent in 1990 to 22 per cent in 1994. The source blamed
the reason on severe malnutrition and the ill health status of
pregnant women.
According to the ministry's research conducted by a team of
experts, scientists and researchers to define the impact of the
war led by the U.S. on the health of Iraqi citizens, there is an
increase in the incidences of cancers such as acute leukaemia
(myloid, lymphatic, undifferentiated etc) and in the incidence of
relapse cases compared to those of 1990 and before.
There is a drastic increase in the cancer cases of children and
youth. Some 10-15 cases are being reported daily after the war
compared to only 2-3 cases prior to that. Anemia cases had
increased due to many factors including malnutrition resulting
from the difficult health situation caused by the effect of war
and UN sanctions. An increase in the incidence rate of congenital
malformation cases such as phacomelia, achodroplasia and
mongolism were reported. Similar increases were reported for the
cases of the other types of congenital malformation, bone
dysplasia, central nervous system disorders and anencephally. All
are attributed to the Gulf War.
ends
Presented by: Shanti GMM. 30 Dec 1995.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Parveez Syed's direct contact details are:
One Stuart Road, Thornton Heath, Surrey CR7 8RA1 UK
Tel: London-UK 44-0831-196693;
Fax/tel: 44-0181-665 0384
E-Mail INTERNET: parveez@cr78ra1uk.win-uk.net
CIS to CIS UserID: 100555,61@compuserve.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Food for thought?: "In politics, as in the snake oil business, it
pays to have a short memory and a chameleon-like quality. That is
why the relationship between a journalist and a politician should
be like the one between a dog and a lamp-post".
But who is doing what to whom? One wonders ;-)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________
parveez@cr78ra1uk.win-uk.net
----- End Included Message -----
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 3 16:53:32 1996
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Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 16:54:32 +0001 (EST)
From: Steve H Rose
Subject: Re: postings and individual/communal
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
In-Reply-To: <960101170634_103758308@emout06.mail.aol.com>
Message-Id:
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On Mon, 1 Jan 1996 ASHA101@aol.com wrote:
> Such arguments as clarity and heart, sucinctness and love, simply represent
> these two poles and again both need to be present and in ballance inorder for
> the underlying ideal to be truely alive. This is what sufis have allways
> done, (to, more or less, quote a friend) when the sufis follow both the path
> of faith (iman) and infidelity (kufr), prayer and spilling wine on the prayer
> carpet, the God-ideal and shattering it, morality, piety and laughing at the
> sanctimonious mullas with Nasruddin Hojja, experiencing the holy presence of
> ancient masters and "a loaf of bread a book of verse and thou"
Not all sufis do all of these things, and they certainly don't do them
all at the same time. The key is to know under what circumstances which
behaviors are appropriate and useful. Imagine seeing someone forcing
nauseating fluid down another's throat. Does one necessarily duplicate
this action in all circumstances? Or does one know to only do this when
the other person has been poisoned, and needs to vomit? The person who
knows that is a sufi teacher.
Yours,
habib
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Jan 4 09:12:23 1996
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tariqas@world.std.com; Thu, 04 Jan 1996 20:12:23 +1100
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 1996 20:12:23 +1100
From: D A Rice
Subject: Love is a Boundless Ocean (Rumi poem)
To: tariqas@world.std.com
Message-Id: <01HZMIBN0N369EJ3K8@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au>
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Love is a boundless ocean
in which the heavens
are but a flake of foam.
All the turning heavens are turned
by waves of Love
were it not for Love,
the world would be frozen.
How else would a mineral turn into a plant?
How would plants sacrifice themselves
to become filled with spirit?
How would spirit sacrifice itself
for the sake of that Breath
by which Mary was made pregnant?
All of them would be solid and immovable as ice,
not flying and seeking like locusts.
Every particle is in love with that Perfection
and mounts upward like a sapling.
Their silent aspiration is, in effect,
a song for the Glory of God.
(From Jalaluddin Rumi's Mathnawi, Book 5, v. 3853 ff, based
on the translation by R. A. Nicholson.)
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Jan 4 17:30:42 1996
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Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 12:30:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Abdkabir
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: Re: posting of writings
In-Reply-To:
Message-Id:
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It is not only a problem of bandwidth, but some of us have PPP accounts
wherein all of our mail is automaticallly downloaded onto a local drive -
there is no choice about this procedure, as far as I know. (Shell accounts
don't have this proooblem because they allow users to view their mail as
it appears on the service provider's drive.)
Long, frequent posts that are nothing more than book chapters take up
drive space, even if temporarily (yes, the delete key can be used), but
more of a problem is the time it takes to download such posts adds to the
online bill (not all of us have free company and university accounts), and
ties up the computer until the download is done. Frequent, lengthy data
dumps, can significantly add to the online bill and amount of time it
takes to tie up one's machine. As I said, a much more courteous and fair
solution is to issue brief announcements of new materials that can be
individually downloaded from a web or gopher site.
On Tue, 2 Jan 1996, Bob Olhsson wrote:
> I, for one, would rather see more stories posted from various orders as
> fuel for discussion as long as it is clearly titled as such. I do far
> better being presented with a passage than I do going looking for one. The
> bandwidth and attention involved is trivial compared to the kind of delete
> key effort that "feel-good" and "me-too" conversational trivia requires. It
> is true that there has been little discussion lately but that is the simple
> result of what the rest of us have failed to do!
>
> >On Thu, 28 Dec 1995, Abdkabir wrote:
> >
> >> I heartily second the motion expressed below by Asha. If people cannot
> >> afford the books, then Faoud should once a month say, limit his messages
> >> regarding book chapters to merely announcing that such materials are
> >> available at their web site. This usual Naqsbandi-Nazim aggressiveness in
> >> advertising their "sheik" by dumping bandwidth-eating book chapters onto
> >> this group with such tedious regularity ought not to be tolerated by the
> >> sponser of this list, unless he has changed his mission statement, which
> >> we should be informed about if he has. It seems the more we have been
> >> silent about Faoud's data dumping practices, the more he appears
> >> emboldened to increase the size and frequency of the dumps...and
> >> undoubtedly giving the impression, especially to new subscribers of this
> >> group, that its primary purpose is to serve as a free advertisng medium
> >> for the writings of Sheik Nazim and extending, with locust-like
> >> persistance, the reach of his followers.
> >>
>
> Bob Olhsson Audio | O tongue, thou art a
> olh@hyperback.com | treasure without end.
> P.O. Box 555 | And, O tongue, thou art also a
> Novato, CA 94948-0555 | disease without remedy.
> 415.457.2620 |
> 415.456.1496 FAX | == Jelal'uddin Rumi ==
>
>
>
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From: ASHA101@aol.com
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Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 13:36:17 -0500
Message-Id: <960104133614_83740960@emout05.mail.aol.com>
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: paradox
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Dear Habib,
you wrote in regard to my post on the various arguments for and against
individuality and communality (in which I observed that individuality and
communality are symboloic of two standpoints that are the poles of one
intention and both must exist simotaneously) that you felt the key to
understanding the rightness of a particular behavior depended upon knowing
the right thing to do in a circumstance. I do not disagree with you.
you said
<<>>
I might say, the person who knows what the action is about is a sufi, the
one who knows the cure is a doctor. Becoming a sufi is what we are aiming at
becoming. So, instead of looking at what is evidenced on the surface, we try
to look beneath the surface. One way to peer behind the veil is to see the
paradox and then to wonder, what is this paradox about? One such paradox
would be, the individual and communal standpoints.
And of course, what I mean to talk about is behavior that is antipodean
rather than meerly conflicting.
Observing the viewpoint is no doubt the key to the story of Khidr and
Moses, where Kidr is doing actions that would ordinarily be thought of as
reprehensible. Had Moses looked at what Kider was intending rather than at
what he was doing Moses would have changed his assessment. So one would have
to look from the viewpoint of Khidr. There one would see the paradox: for
instance, what is the paradox in sinking a ship full of people, if the
intention is to be compassionate then the paradox is hurting people and not
hurting people. In this case there is a ballance, hurt some in order to not
hurt others. If Moses only knew that Khidr would not act without being aware
of both hurting and not hurting and that these must be representative of the
two poles of compassion, then he would have seen Khidr's actions in a much
different light; i.e. as acts of compassion. And then he might have learned
something.
So Sufis may pray devoutly one day and spill wine upon the prayer carpet
the next day. It is a paradox to say they represent the same thing. Some
would argue the value of prayer and others the value of spilling wine. I'm
suggesting that both are true and both are in me.
I'm also saying that individuality and communality are indeed a paradox
and that in some cases the paradox may represent the intention (value) of
freedom and in other cases honor. Further I am hypothesising that these
values may not be equally alive in both eastern and western cultures.
Somehow my mind made some connections between the dual focus threads and
the individual/communal threads that have woven a rather lively pattern
around here of late.
Asha
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Jan 4 18:36:08 1996
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Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 13:36:08 -0500
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To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: submission
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I submit that there are two senses to the word submit besides the one which
submissive conjurs. First there is to submit as in submitting to the king in
order to gain power. As one rises in power one submits more fully. The most
fully submitted is the king who has total freedom.
Then there is submission in love. This submission trades freedom for
intimacy. But total freedom is gained when one has lost one's self completely
in the other as Majun has in Leila. Or to choose a more common example: as
the parents do when they complain loveingly of having no social life since
thier baby has come.
The shadow of these submission is in the first case secretly not a
submission at all, just a grab for power and in the second case is not a
submission of love but of fear (as in fear of abandonment - which is no doubt
why you see some sufi poetry actually revel in abandonment, it is not a
dependance but a total lack of fear of the worst and the poison becomes
wine).
The appelations "thinking" and "democratic" for instance suggest to me
independance and indifference which are the two wings which make the sufi
fly. Without these, submission means nothing; it is not love, it is not
light.
Asha
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Jan 4 22:00:21 1996
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Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 14:00:21 -0800
From: mateens@sybase.com (Mateen Siddiqui)
Message-Id: <9601042200.AA02576@serii.sybase.com>
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: Re: submission
Cc: mateens@sybase.com
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Salaams,
>...
> The appelations "thinking" and "democratic" for instance suggest to me
>independance and indifference which are the two wings which make the sufi
>fly. Without these, submission means nothing; it is not love, it is not
>light.
> Asha
>
"Independent" of other-than-God, yes, indifferent to what befalls them, yes.
"Thinking", insofar as it leads one to contemplation of God, yeah. But thinking
where it takes one far from God is of no benefit: as for example, constantly
chasing down fine points of jurisprudence or logic. "Democratic"? - It doesn't
fit my concept of God--He never took a vote from me on anything (for which I am
grateful). The concept of leadership and Shura is more applicable among Sufis,
wherein consultation is made by the Master, but votes are not taken.
--mateen siddiqui
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Jan 5 01:50:19 1996
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Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 17:50:19 -0800
From: mateens@sybase.com (Mateen Siddiqui)
Message-Id: <9601050150.AA02762@serii.sybase.com>
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: Re: Abu Yazid al-Bistami and the disciple + comment
Cc: mateens@sybase.com
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Just one comment:
Actually I consider the "Ultimate Shaykh" to be Muhammad, peace be upon him,
as Allah is not a shaykh, as a shaykh is an intermediary to Allah.
Allah is the goal, whereas the shaykh is the means to reach the goal.
This is a deep topic, but to me the meaning is this: Allah sent a human being to
us human beings, because we cannot directly experience God, we need an
intermediary. For this reason, the door to God is not to say only "laa
ilaha ill-Allah", but is to follow it directly by "Muhammadan Rasul-Allah".
Either phrase by itself is imperfect. That is why the Prophet was ordered by
Allah to say, "if you wish to love God, follow me, then Allah will love you."
So the goal is One, the One, and the path is through the Prophet (saws), of
whom the shaykh is the representative and imitator, par excellence.
peace!
--mateen siddiqui
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Jan 5 02:30:01 1996
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From: ASHA101@aol.com
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Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 21:30:01 -0500
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To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: Re: submission
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Dear Mateen,
>>>"Independent" of other-than-God, yes, indifferent to what befalls them,
yes.<<<<
You are quite right about one way of using the words "think" and
"democratic". For some they denote standing apart from god. There is also
somethng quite beautiful about these words when they denote the sense of
taking responsibility for oneself and not passing it off to another.
There are two ways of thinking of these words. My sense was that in the
context that Johara brought them up, I could feel the courage that it takes
to become a true mureed. Perhaps you are pointing out the fear of letting go
of one's own sense of self. Certainly, to let go one's sense of self requires
a strong sense of self to begin with and should not be suggested to all.
However, there was a very interesting 16th century mystic in France who
taught the faithful the practice of letting go. The ultimate practice
consisted in even letting go of ones' idea of god!
Asha
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Jan 5 06:22:37 1996
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05 Jan 1996 00:22:37 -0600 (CST)
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 1996 00:22:37 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: submission
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
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I know of no monotheistic believer who refers to Heaven in any
way other than to mean The Kingdom of Heaven. No one would suggest that
we should say "The Democracy of Heaven." And I certainly agree with
Mateen Siddiqui's implication that "chasing down fine points of
jurisprudence or logic" can in itself be an idolatry.
May we always have the obdience and humility never to put ourselves
above our Master; and our Master also, so that he may never put himself above
our God.
=Mackie Blanton=
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Jan 5 16:11:56 1996
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From: Hafizullah@aol.com
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Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 11:11:56 -0500
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To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: Re: paradox
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It has been said that a paradox can be paradoctored.
Near as I can tell, something we call "paradox" is an artifact of language
and perspective -- i.e., the mind world -- not truth. In this case,
"individuality" is something that happens at one level, and "community" at
another. Level confusions in general (and this one in particular, since
we're talking about it) lead to all sorts of mindbinds and conflicted
emotions. Individuality and community are not mutually exclusive but
complimentary, and it may even be that neither is realized in their fullness
or completion without the other.
Lovingly stirring the pot,
Hafizullah
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Jan 5 19:21:00 1996
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To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi)
Subject: Re: Abu Yazid al-Bistami and the disciple + comment
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All of you have always been kind to me so I willbe forth right in my
question. As I have come to understand through my up bringing there is no
intermediary between me and Allah. Allah does not need to come to man
through another human. If that which calls itself Allah did than what would
the diffrence be between Islam and Christianity and thus the concept of
trinity. I am not advocating anu of this as a belief system by the way, I
am simply attempting to reconcile the exoteric from the esoteric. If my
father were alive would he not being a fundamentilist state to me that all
Islam offers is the most direct path and that that path is through yourself
and Allah.
Now as to the question of the Companions and those who the Prophet (sws)
will upon the day of the Aeon of Judgement stand for this is a diffrent
matter. And as to the matter of Baraka of intercession either through a
chain and or through the past history of Caliph I believe that this also is
a diffrent matter.
As to a succession of Prophets beginning with Adam and Ending as the Seal of
the Prophets with Mohammed this clearly lodges a completely diffrent thought
into the matter. Last but not least the notion that it requires two angels
to conduit a prayer to the ears of Allah becomes extremely interesting.
Than if all of this is the case does Islam's proclamation of being the most
direct path hold any water? And what of the issue called Allah is closer
than your jougalar. Please be kind enough to respond to thse questions.
They are difficult to ask because I know I am suppose to already know these
fundamental answers, but I don't. Your dearest brother with but a limited
capacity. Jabriel. 45 days now without cigarrettes!
-----------------------------------------
Jabriel Hanafi
Dynamics Unlimited
Suite 806 327 Maitland
Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7
Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Jan 5 19:37:42 1996
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Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 11:37:42 -0800
From: mateens@sybase.com (Mateen Siddiqui)
Message-Id: <9601051937.AA00643@serii.sybase.com>
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: Re: submission
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> ... Certainly, to let go one's sense of self requires
> a strong sense of self to begin with and should not be suggested to all.
My master says, "the greater the ego, the greater the resulting saint
when he or she 'rides'" his or her ego. For the Prophet, peace be upon him, said,
'your ego is your mount.'"
> However, there was a very interesting 16th century mystic in France who
>taught the faithful the practice of letting go. The ultimate practice
>consisted in even letting go of ones' idea of god!
> Asha
vive cette mystique! After all, "who knows himself, knows God"
with all its attendant meanings.
peace!
--mateen
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Jan 5 22:21:49 1996
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From: Jinavamsa@aol.com
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Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 17:21:49 -0500
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To: tariqas@world.std.com
Subject: Yusuf Ali translation
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hello all,
is there anyone who can clarify this? ----
I have come across a copy of the Abdullah Yusuf Ali's 1938 2-vol. The Meaning
of The Glorious Qur'an. There are many beautiful verses that are numbered
with a preceding "C" [as in "C.288" (with a ref. to the sura/ay. below that
number, in parentheses)] -- are these verses that Ali wrote himself? or are
they from traditional sources that he carried into English? If traditional,
where/who are they from?
These verses do not appear in the modified Ali translation printed in Saudi
Arabia in the past 10 years, I think (1410 A.H. = ?).
thank you.
in peace,
Jinavamsa
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Jan 6 00:00:15 1996
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Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 16:00:15 -0800
From: mateens@sybase.com (Mateen Siddiqui)
Message-Id: <9601060000.AA01044@serii.sybase.com>
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: Re: Yusuf Ali translation
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Jinavamsa,
hello,
The verses you refer to were Abdullah Yusuf Ali's I believe.
These passages were "expurgated" for being to Sufic! The original
translation has been retained for the most part, but some changes were
made. However the commentary was extensively censored, modified and
added too. (Things like the verse "in them are men who love to purify
themselves" are commented 'this means cleaning themselves after
using the bathroom.' and suchlike!).
Remember, Saudi Arabia is a Wahabi nation, which is dedicated to
eliminating the perceived "shirk" (polytheism), "kufr" (disbelief), and "bid'a"
(innovation) of the Sufis. And in this they are of course killing the essence
of Islam.
peace!
--mateen siddiqui
____________________________________________________________________
Naqshbandi-Haqqani Sufi Foundation
URL: http://www.best.com/~informe/haqqani/haqqani.html
mirror http://www.zakat.org.uk/haqqani/haqqani.html [in 9 languages]
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Subject: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth
To: tariqas@world.std.com (Tariqas Elist)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 17:05:25 -0800 (PST)
From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (Haramullah)
Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga
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Assalam alaykum, my kin.
I have returned after an absence from this elist in response to request
from my brother Habibullah as he thought I might find this particular
subject valuable to discuss (he was correct :>):
He wrote:
|...individual vs. communal/group approaches to spiritual growth.
I'm unsure that there is really a clear differentiation between the
two, since even within the community/communal group we have our own
process of individual growth with which to contend.
However, the context within which we discover Allah may make a difference
to us and may prove more or less helpful to our overall growth depending
on what form of spiritual practice we take up.
|...this issue may be at the root of some fundamental differences
|in approach by people involved in Sufi and other spiritual path(s).
The issue might also be a *symptom* of other fundamental differences.
One example is the attitude by Sufis toward monasticism, specifically
toward withdrawing from the world as part of a spiritual path. Most
Sufis whom I've met online and off agree that this is not part of the
Way of Allah, as the Sufi, it is said, may retire temporarily from
society but will always return to bring forward the fruits of hir
retirement to the greater community.
This notion of 'returning the wisdom to the community' appears to be
very important to many mystical traditions, including that of Sufism.
It describes a dynamic between the student and hir culture, and yet
it does not say in what form this returning should take: whether it
be through a designated spiritual community of which she is part, or
through other means more tangental (Internet? :>).
|My hypothesis is that some of us, partly from being "Westerners," partly
|from our own psychological states, tend to approach spirituality from the
|point of individual experience -- and to be threatened by truly becoming
|part of a collective entity (afraid of losing our identity or control,
|perhaps).
Yes, differences of culture may very well be the underlying fraction-
point, manifesting over the issue of group v. individual spirituality.
However, my brief exposure to Sufi sheikhs and texts indicate to me
that there are said to be 'lone' or 'wandering sufis' who from time
to time drop in to the wider Sufi community (perhaps somewhat like
the Green Man or various saints are said to instruct intermittently
when the Will of Allah moves them).
|Others of us, partly from being from more traditional
|cultures, partly from our own psychological states, tend to approach
|spirituality from the collective/communcal point of view -- to see our
|growth as intricately related to the growth of others in our group, and
|perhaps to the leadership of a "master" -- and to be threatened by truly
|pursuing our individual experience (afraid of losing our identity as part
|of the group, or the control that comes from the group, perhaps).
Not only this but the way of the individual may be fraught (especially
in the US or other developed nations) with peril, the hazards of modern
society (strange cults, idolatry, etc.) being a sort of trap which could
prove very dangerous to those without *some* guide (sheikh).
I have been told that Allah or various other entities may guide the
individual sufi, and yet we must understand that this is a special
and unusual class of individual, moved by the Will of Allah to ways
we can perhaps never hope to understand or connect.
There is also the tradition that says that ALL Sufis (no exceptions)
must in some way connect to the 'Golden Chain' of teachers, the line
from Abraham and Adam down through the ages to today's world, which
usually requires we become initiated to the guidance of a living
sheikh to fulfill this requirement.
There are traditional and metaphysical influences that may determine
the safer path, and this is usually by connecting with a tradition
(but not always, some say).
I will have more to write in response to one or two other posts.
Wonderful topic!
Alaykum assalam, my kin.
Haramullah
tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Jan 6 01:45:33 1996
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Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth
To: tariqas@world.std.com (Tariqas Elist)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 17:45:33 -0800 (PST)
From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (Haramullah)
Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga
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Assalam alaykum, my kin.
Johara Shahabuddin :
| I read a book by Scott Peck about his experiments with community and
|liked it, called A Different Drum. (Although I didnt like the `quick
|community' that he seemed to be offering his clients who got together
|for these experiments.)
Thank you for the reference. What is this 'quick community' of which
you speak and he writes? How does he recommend that such a group be
started and why, as opposed to a longer-lasting one?
|...at first when people get together, there is a false community feeling
|...everyone is nice to one another and so on. And then slowly a boredom
|builds up that leads to a low energy, depressive state for the community
|...because differences that arise are being trivially discarded...
I live in a small community (4 adults) sharing a home in a residential
neighborhood. I've lived here about 5 years now and have seen the
combination of people here change many times.
I have witnessed the *exact* problem you are describing many times, and
have come to associate it with two major difficulties:
1) Commonality of Value/Purpose/Goal
There is a great value in having shared purposes, goals and
dreams beyond a desire to live in the same place harmoniously.
Without this type of sharing (even if developed over a time)
the community will eventually fragment based on differences
of value and lifestyle as each grows in hir own way.
2) Communication
Without constant or recurrent communication amongs the WHOLE
group (or some centrally motivating force in this regard),
any group which attempts to share communal space will begin
to decay and fragment within. In order for this communication
to take place the time must be made for it, the vehicle for
it must be allowed, and the motivation must see it through.
Communication can be a very difficult thing to iron out,
especially among people from very different backgrounds and within
communities without clear authority structures.
(NOTE how easy it would be for a sheikh to facilitate or obstruct these!)
|and slowly this builds up into a stage of conflict where if the conflict
|is worked through and resolved, there arrives a sense of true community.
I agree, and yet would say that the method of this 'working through and
resolution' can at times be extremely time-consuming and complicated.
Many people don't have the desire to engage such difficult processes
(thus the value of shared goals) or confront themselves and their
limitations.
At least in a 'spiritual community' there can be focus applied to very
specific individual processes which enhance individual perception, ability
to listen, and the possibility of shared value. Within a community that
does *not* share the regard for 'spirituality' (and some common ideas about
what this means), it can be much more difficult to resolve such conflict,
and instead the community disintegrates.
|He perceives this process to be more accepting of individuals in the
|`true community' stage, and leads to growth of the individuals in it...
|whereas if a group is stuck in the initial `false' stage, then
|individuality tends to be lost.
Agreed, what you seem to be describing is a breakthrough of sincerety,
openness and the shared experience which makes living in community so
difficult and rewarding.
Alaykum assalam, my kin.
Haramullah
tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com
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Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth
To: tariqas@world.std.com (Tariqas Elist)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 17:29:05 -0800 (PST)
From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (Haramullah)
Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga
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Assalam alaykum my kin.
Abdual Alim:
|>...the sheepishly way people following without question
The sheikh is not to be questioned but followed without even a thought!
This is the role of the true murshid (I hope I have that word right).
|>or looking for truth.
Here of course many questions can assist, but ultimately only Allah
can provide us with the truth, and this not often verbalizable.
|>For the most part people her in american take the leaders information
|>at face value
If one has been taken into the fold of a sheikh, is this not expected?
I know it is tempting to look outside the shadow of the sheikh's robes,
but is it really of value to do this? Might we become more confused
than assisted by the variety of voices and expecially those who do not
know us as well as our teacher/guide?
|>and if past examples of this do not have ending that I like.
I'd like to hear more about what things you did not like.
|>I without question want to ask question talk about everything going
|>on in my life to include my dreams.
I'm sure that some sheikhs differ in what kinds of questions they will
allow and when. The sensitive sheikh will likely speak with hir students
about items of requirement *after* they are fulfilled. Some may refuse
to say anything! And what are we to do? Is this any different than
the mysteries of Allah?! She is teaching us a valuable lesson, surely.
Habibullah:
|...Americans (and Westerners to some degree) think of themselves as
|individualists, and are in some ways. However, they also tend to be
|very susceptible to cults where they loose all their individuality
|and critical thinking skills. Perhaps they are really seeking balance?
Well, are you sure these are the same people doing this? Perhaps
Americans are just like very many other large groups of people and
comprise a spectrum of individuality/cultishness. I notice that
the greatest byproduct of Americans' 'individuality' is a failure
to connect to each other, to find a sacred community, to achieve
lasting and continued relationships, etc.
In this way those who come from American culture may find such
things attractive within the mystical communities of other, older
cultures.
|Is there a way of benefitting from positive aspects of a relationship
|to a teacher and to membership in a tariqa without loosing the ability
|to make independent judgements when necessary?
I would warn strongly against this. The sheikh-murshid relationship
is a very special one, and (comparable to guru-chela in Hinduism)
requires the absolute trust of the student. Surely there are times
for questioning and discussion of teachings and practices, but to
have the student evaluating the assignments of the guide before
undertaking them would seem to place the ego of the student as an
obstacle to hir development.
|Can submitting to a teacher facilitate individual growth?
|Under what conditions?
I think this is a very important question. Individual growth is indeed
possible within such a relationship, but it must be founded on mutual
trust and a sincere dedication.
|Is individual growth the goal?
Not always. Sometimes the dedicant will be challenged to 'cut hirself
back', through begging for example. This is not the same as the
'individual growth' of learning a new mystical practice or absorbing
the text of the saints. It is a kind of 'pruning' which perfects the
interior of the sufi, and it is this which might prove the most
objectionable to the new student.
Imagine someone saying to you: give up your friends, they do not follow
the Way of God; give up your livelihood and take to a more humane and
loving way of life; go out and sell crafts upon the streets so that you
can see the meanness of the social person. These are things which a
sheikh might say, and yet if we find them objectionable and have the
leeway to refuse, then we may miss a very valuable opportunity to
perfect our soul.
I wish to make it plain that I am *NOT* in a relationship with a human
sheikh at this time of the kind I have observed above. My comments
are based solely on brief exposure to texts and communities which
call themselves 'Sufi', as well as to similar groups and sources.
Alaykum assalam, my kin.
Haramullah
tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Jan 6 04:25:47 1996
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From: Jinavamsa@aol.com
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To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: Re cigarettes [was Re: Abu Yazid al-Bistami and the disciple + comment]
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dear Jabriel,
may your lungs celebrate the air that it passing through them!
may Allah resonate through the oxygen that runs from the lungs up through the
jugular artery and all throughout!
in peace,
Jinavamsa
In a message dated 96-01-05 14:25:23 EST, you write:
>Your dearest brother with but a limited
>capacity. Jabriel. 45 days now without cigarrettes!
>-----------------------------------------
> Jabriel Hanafi
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To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: Re: Yusuf Ali translation
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thank you Mateen,
are there any more recent printings of the Yusuf Ali translation and
commentary available, then, which keep all of the 1938 version? I mean, one
available in the USA or otherwise orderable?
also, could you explain briefly the terms:
Wahabi
"shirk" (polytheism)
"kufr" (disbelief),
and
"bid'a" (innovation) ?
Or do your brief glosses capture what the Arabic terms mean?
thank you again,
Jinavamsa
In a message dated 96-01-05 19:57:51 EST, you write:
>Subj: Re: Yusuf Ali translation
>Date: 96-01-05 19:57:51 EST
>From: mateens@sybase.com (Mateen Siddiqui)
>Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com
>Reply-to: tariqas@europe.std.com
>To: tariqas@europe.std.com
>Jinavamsa,
>
>hello,
>
>The verses you refer to were Abdullah Yusuf Ali's I believe.
>These passages were "expurgated" for being to Sufic! The original
>translation has been retained for the most part, but some changes were
>made. However the commentary was extensively censored, modified and
>added too. (Things like the verse "in them are men who love to purify
>themselves" are commented 'this means cleaning themselves after
>using the bathroom.' and suchlike!).
>
>Remember, Saudi Arabia is a Wahabi nation, which is dedicated to
>eliminating the perceived "shirk" (polytheism), "kufr" (disbelief), and
>"bid'a"
>(innovation) of the Sufis. And in this they are of course killing the
essence
>of Islam.
>
>peace!
>
>--mateen siddiqui
>
>
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Jan 6 07:06:46 1996
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Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 02:06:46 -0500
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To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: Re: paradox
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>>> something we call "paradox" is an artifact of language
and perspective -- i.e., the mind world -- not truth.<<<
Quite right paradox is a tool. It is like a dual focus practice. That is
why I used the Khidr/Moses story, the tool Moses was using was to look from
one perspective only, his own. Through dual focus one gains perspective. To
quote a friend,"It is not good enough to assume that things are maya. That
would be the negative aspect of it; the positive would be to ask 'but what
are they?"
>>> In this case,"individuality" is something that happens at one level,
and "community" at another.<<<
What levels are you reffering to? At the level of being a human being
studiying spirituality or hoping for realization they seem to me to be at the
same level, both physical/psychical/social/political/even soulful elements.
And are you considering paradox a mind bind? I'm considering it one means to
put the mind into the state of intuition, as it is discovering the intention
that I'm interested in.
>>>and it may even be that neither is realized in their fullness or
completion without the other.<<<
Exactly the point. The paradox of the paradox is that there is some
realitiy to it. It was way back when logic was invented that someone
realized (Aristotle especially) that things tend to exist in pairs,
light/shadow, male/female, up/down that sort of thing. But really it is (as
you say) just a tool of perception.
Asha
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Date: Sat, 06 Jan 1996 02:18:32 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: submission
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
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Mateen--
Would you be willing to list "all of the attendant meanings"
--or suggest as many as you can--of "He who knows himself knows his
God." ("Man 9arafa nafsahu 9arafa rabahu.")?
=Mackie=
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Date: Sat, 6 Jan 96 18:13:20 PST
Subject: Re: Yusuf Ali translation
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
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On Fri, 5 Jan 1996 16:00:15 -0800 Mateen Siddiqui wrote:
>The verses you refer to were Abdullah Yusuf Ali's I believe.
>These passages were "expurgated" for being to Sufic! The original
>translation has been retained for the most part, but some changes
>were made. However the commentary was extensively censored,
>modified and added too. (Things like the verse "in them are men who
>love to purify themselves" are commented 'this means cleaning
>themselves after using the bathroom.' and suchlike!).
>>--mateen siddiqui
Mateen,
Could you also offer some sense of when the changes you refer to
were made? For example, I recently came across an edition of Yusuf
Ali's translation copyrighted 1946 (by Khalil Al-Rawaf), and I am
unclear whether this is closer to the original 1934 edition, or if
the expurgation of parts held to be objectionable had already been
done. Can you, or someone else, clarify this for me?
Thank you.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Abi'l-Khayr
E-mail: omegapub@taconic.net
Date: 01/06/96 Time: 18:13:20
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
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On Sat, 6 Jan 1996 MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu wrote:
> Mateen--
>
> Would you be willing to list "all of the attendant meanings"
> --or suggest as many as you can--of "He who knows himself knows his
> God." ("Man 9arafa nafsahu 9arafa rabahu.")?
>
For those interested, Ibn 'Arabi discusses this topic in an essay in the
book entitled _What the Seeker Needs_ published by Threshold. I leant the
book out but I think that it is in the essay called "The One Alone".
-Brad
PS- Does anyone know a mail order source of Ibn 'Arabi's _Tarjuman
al-Ashwaq_ in English? Thank you for any leads.
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To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: Re: Abu Yazid al-Bistami and the disciple + comment
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In a message dated 96-01-05 14:25:23 EST, you write:
>the diffrence be between Islam and Christianity and thus the concept of
>trinity
In terms of the metaphysics rather than doctrine, and sufism rather than the
Islam of the mosque (I assume that's what you want): It's the difference
between implicit and explicit, of map vs territory, and of emphasis. There
is an _experience_ that one can have of how things are wired up that has been
interpreted and reified by Christian doctrine into something called the
Trinity. You can have this experience regardless of your path or religion,
if you are engaged in a serious and uncompromising experiential search for
the inner truth. Islam emphasizes the unity of God rather than these other
aspects, and so this experience is usually something spoken about between a
student and his/her shaikh after the student encounters it on the inner
planes, rather than something put into public verbal teaching than can become
a mind-bind.
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From: dances
Subject: trinity inrelation to everything
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>In a message dated 96-01-05 14:25:23 EST, you write:
>
>>the diffrence be between Islam and Christianity and thus the concept of
>>trinity
There seems to be a basis in the science aspect of the world for the
concept of trinity. Often two seperate and completely different substances
will merge thier essences losing their individuality in the merging
acquiring new abilities new properties that either of the two original
substances didn't have PRIOR to their merging ONLY thru the third substance
acting on both. I call this Third force. Mr Gurdjieff, may His soul be at
peace, expounded this third force to no end.
A vehicle can be third force. Mohammed, may He and all his Family be at
peace, had Bharaq (The holy vehicle) to span the distance or veils if you
will between Him and God. Though God only knows what IS necessary in any
situation :)
Much has been said of Jesus through out the centuries since his arising
upon this planet. We are so far removed from the legends passed down to us
that unless God enlightens us personally we may never know the truth.
Taking in to account the legend of Osirus amoung many other Arising beings,
I am personally saying I believe in the trinity as much to say Mohammed,
peace unto Him and His Family, was the same as Jesus : a mediater for some
to reach the Ocean thru his Divine Riverness. May not the Drop be a son of
the Father the River? And so on for the relationship between the
Master(River) and the Ocean(Allah). What is this fear of Fatherhood? I
believe that Jesus died and descended to Hell to relieve those that
suffered (A stepping stone across suffering) (No greater thing but that a
man lay down His life for the Friend) and Arose on the Third (not second or
fourth day) day. His was a body of light according to the "legends" (If thy
eye be single thy whole body be full of light). There are different stages
to this concept of a body being light. Jesus mentioned many time we are in
darkness; we sleep; we are not awake; light is a catalyst a third force.
Many times it is mentioned having eyes they do not see; hearing they do not
hear. What are these strange words? Can you apply them to what your Master
asks of you? Be unselfish; hold the door open for that elderly person.
Humility and kindness come from God.
A raindrop, dripping from a cloud,
Was ashamed when it saw the sea.
`Who am I where there is a sea?' it said.
When it saw itself with the eye of humility,
A shell nurtured it in its embrace.
Saadi of Shiraz (c. 1200 AD)
These are my thoughts, as unrealized as I am, I wish Peace upon you
Brothers and Sisters
James of thr Nimatullahi Sufi Order
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 8 23:16:24 1996
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Date: Mon, 8 JAN 96 19:36:22
From: "M.I.S. DEPT"
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: RE: trinity inrelation to everything
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Preachers and believers have tried very hard to explain the very abstract
concept of trinity since time immemorial. But there are many followers
of Christianity who just could not understand, just as I myself get more
confused with your explanation. If I am not mistaken, this is the very
fundamental reason why the Protestants reject this concept.
Regards,
Noordin
Singapore
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08 Jan 1996 23:10:08 -0600 (CST)
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 23:10:08 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: submission
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
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As a response to my request to Mateen that she give us her personal
sense of Ibn 'Arabi's "Whoso Knoweth Himself..."--Brad suggested we consult
Ibn 'Arabi's *What the Seeker Needs*. While I don't disagree necessarily
with Brad's suggestion, I do hope that Mateen will still be willing to give
us her sense of Ibn 'Arabi's formula. I guess I am asking for her
individuality on this point since I do not believe that her own individuality
will diminish the universality of Ibn 'Arabi's meaning.
I have often been in situations where i was discussing The Qur'aan with
a Muslim professor of Islamic Studies, when I would ask for an individuality
understanding or a communal understanding of this or that passage of The Book
--and get back as responses only passages quoted from The Book. I suppose it
is my Western orientation, but I cannot understand why when asked a question
about The Qur'aan or about hadith or about Sunnah, many scholars respond not
with a thoughful, searching discussion but with quotation after quotation
after quotation. Then all i am left to say is, "Ahyiiwah!", which translates
something like the British "Quite!".
My point is that Brad's reaction to my request to Mateen was to tell
which book of Ibn 'Arabi's to consult. But at this quiet moment I want to
consult the text of Mateen's mind, since it iwas Mateen herself who suggested
that there are a myriad of attendant meaninings to the Muhyiddin's formula. I
agree with her and simply wish to wish ones she senses to be inherent in the
formula. I believe that true Sufism is not afraid of this kind of discussion.
Once in a while, after I have posted a thought on a topic, some people
have contacted me privately to continue the discussion. Having thought some
about this, I now see that i prefer to keep such discussion public, which, of
course, is what a discussion group is all about. I believe that the list
members lose whrn the discussion suddenly become private. If I am going to
contradict myself or reveal unwittingly that I can be very schizoid about
*sacriture* (the study and practice of sacred language), I want to to be brave
enough to do these things publicly among friends.
Brad wondered about some publishing or clearing houses that we might
be familiar with. One that i would suggest is
BESHARA FOUNDATION
P.O. bOX 422283
San Francisco, CA 94141-2283
Tel 415-388-5932
=Mackie Blanton=
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Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 17:50:13 +1100 (EST)
From: Fred Rice
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: Re: trinity inrelation to everything
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Assalamu alaikum,
I can't comment on much of the previous stuff (since my knowledge
is not sufficient to), but as far as I am aware, Jesus is never
quoted in the gospels as saying unambiguously "I am God."
Also, we know Hallaj said "I am the Truth" and Abu Yazid al-Bistami
said "Glory be to me!", yet they did not mean the existence of
a trinity...
On the other hand, Frithjof Schuon has written some interesting
stuff on this topic, but its been ages since I've read Schuon....
Peace,
Farid-ud-Dien (Fred Rice)
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 9 07:11:39 1996
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09 Jan 1996 01:11:39 -0600 (CST)
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 1996 01:11:39 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: trinity inrelation to everything
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
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It is not true, as Noordin (Singapore) has suggested, that
"Prostestants reject" the concept of the trinity. It is true that some
Prostestants do; and those who do refer to other christians as
trinitarians and to themselves as non-trinitarians. However, if we wish
to concern ourselves with any christian concept, we must bear in mind that
there are 30,000 christian denominations in the world today.
Prostestantism emerged in the 16th century. Christianity had
fifteen hundred before than to develop. During the first years of those
fifteen hundred years, the very first christians--those who today called
themselves "Orthodox Christians" to distinguish themselves from Catholics
and Prostestants--developed a body of sacred commentary on many christian
concepts, including the trinity. The one which ought to interest Sufis
is the concept of Theosis or Deification, whose formula reads "Divinity
became human so that human beings could take on the seal of divinity."
Another way to translate this is to say, "God became human so that human
beings could become gods." These first christians made a distinction
between Divinity, which belonged to the Godhead, and deification, which
was inherited by mankind. God is Divine. Mankind is deified.
It is only Eastern christians today who still follow this dogma.
The West, being what the West is, has lost it, having first given it up as
being too mystical.
Obviously, from a Sufi point of view, there is more affinity among
the Islamic principle of the Ninety-Nine Attributes of Allah, the Jewish
principle of the Ten Attributes of Adonay Elohim, and the Eastern Orthodox
Christian principle of the Three Persons of the One Godhead. The strength
inherent in the Sufi Way is that Sufism stands as the seal of unity. Judaism
oofers the knowledge that God is One. islam offers the most direct path
to God. Eastern Orthodox Christianity (the first christianity still extant)
offers the knowledge that there is a Godhead worshipped for its Fatherliness,
its Redeemerness, and its Spirit. Surely these principles are not beyond
Sufism.
There is little confusion about Sufism affinity to monotheism. The
confusion arises when Sufism steps outside of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam
to illuminate principles that one can also find in Taoism and Buddhism. Of
these principles, reincarnation is probably the most vexing. While there is
a teaching on reincarnation among orthodox jews, orthodox (sunni) muslims
and all christians ( I believe) have no mosque-oriented or church-oriented
teachings on this concept.
All blesed things come from the East. But it appears that all blessed
things can be discussed simultaneously only in the West. And it appears that
Sufis in the West are the ones best poised to smooth the path of discussion.
=Mackie Blanton=
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Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 23:38:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Steven Finkelman
Subject: Re: trinity inrelation to everything
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
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affirming, denying, reconsiling.
I have rediscorved in my essence that these are true forces in (wo)man.
I have discorved that by expanding the heart through breath one extends
the front of the body, afirming force. when the heart closes down, the
back is fuller, denying force. By expanding and bending the upper spine
backward, negativity may be overcome. It takes the mind, will to see
this, reconsiling.
Sheik Sadiq
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From: Simon Bryquer
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Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 02:45:42 -0500
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To: tariqas@world.std.com
Subject: Re: submission
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On Mon, 08 Jan 1996 MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu said:
>As a response to my request to Mateen that she give us her personal sense
of
>Ibn 'Arabi's "Whoso Knoweth Himself..."--Brad suggested we consult Ibn
'Arabi's
>*What the Seeker Needs*. While I don't disagree necessarily with Brad's
>suggestion, I do hope that Mateen will still be willing to give us her
sense of
>Ibn 'Arabi's formula. I guess I am asking for her individuality on this
point
>since I do not believe that her own individuality will diminish the
>universality of Ibn 'Arabi's meaning.
> I have often been in situations where i was discussing The Qur'aan with a
>Muslim professor of Islamic Studies, when I would ask for an individuality
>understanding or a communal understanding of this or that passage of The
Book
>--and get back as responses only passages quoted from The Book. I suppose
it
>is my Western orientation, but I cannot understand why when asked a
question
>about The Qur'aan or about hadith or about Sunnah, many scholars respond
not
>with a thoughful, searching discussion but with quotation after quotation
after
>quotation. Then all i am left to say is, "Ahyiiwah!", which translates
>something like the British "Quite!".
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Quite! I also would like to see more of this individual understanding,
instead of a chorus of mystic sounding parrots. And I say this with the
full understanding that here in the group it is not as if you're talking to
your shaykh -- and therefore the 'adab' is different.
The same goes for prayer, you know what Rumi said: If it is question of
pointing your behind to the sky and camel can do it better.
Best,
Simon Bryquer
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Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 10:07:37 -0500
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To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
From: dances
Subject: Re: trinity inrelation to everything
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That was beautifully written and concise it seems.
I saved one section to comment on:
There is little confusion about Sufism affinity to monotheism. The
confusion arises when Sufism steps outside of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam
to illuminate principles that one can also find in Taoism and Buddhism. Of
these principles, reincarnation is probably the most vexing. While there is
a teaching on reincarnation among orthodox jews, orthodox (sunni) muslims
and all christians ( I believe) have no mosque-oriented or church-oriented
teachings on this concept.
the concept of reincarnation is strange. re + in + carnate my assumption is
that carnate means to inhabit so the whole thing means to do over like many
things are REDONE in the time sense as we are creatures of time :one thing
after another.
The first public declaration of eternal recurrance occured thru P.D.
Ouspenskii's book "in search of the miracoulous". Recurrance means simply
imagine your life a circle. Your birth and death occupy the same spot on
the circle. They are connected by the powerful forces of birth(esctacy) and
death(unknown) but apparently these twin forces are equal hence one uniting
both ends of life. At death we are trapped by the glue of our life and
travel and experience everything as it once was EXACTLY. think of the dirt
path home you trod every evening cutting thru the back alley if you never
stray a rut develops deeper and deeper that is our life without a Master to
see outside ourselves.
deja vu for me means ... I am here...a sense of the deepening of the
moment...I awaken a bit. The funny thing of those moments I don't know what
is to happen next yet at times ha mostly or at khaniqah I have felt almost
two events silmultaneously...a newness occur!
at any rate theres been poetry; literature done on eternal recurrance available.
I think any possibility of reincarnation is if possible a bitmore advanced
and implys going into someone else body---hopefully ha somewhat unoccupied
:) perforce bodies must have some ego or whatever so reincarnation implys a
powerful shift thru out the universe for one ego to move to make room for
the incoming
I like the idea of recurrance over reincarnation . It makes me want to be
more careful of my actions as any changes implys tremendous upheavel to any
world event scenario. The man who commits suicide ... wait!...heres a story
I read many years ago. SF Chronicle. A man ran into TransAmerica pyramid
building exclaiming he wanted to see God! He went up 20 or so stories found
a empty elevater shaft and with no...hesitation jumped down...He lived and
said he saw God. Think of the weight of that experience. from birth he must
travel to that exact point...a fulcrum coloring all of his life still
unconscious of that impending moment but I am thinking such hot experience
must heat the coils of before and after...to understand what I said you
need to see mans life as a spiral and certain moments touch each other
where they lie next to each other dna of course is a good example of a
spiral..could be connection. Also the solatsystem seen from outside is also
such a spiral over a long time for us.
So above and below us there is spirals at work. God's creation
Probably I could go on....But time pulls me :)
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Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 11:44:55 -0500
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To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Cc: JHulvey@aol.com
Subject: Re: submission
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> Once in a while, after I have posted a thought on a topic, >some people
have contacted me privately to continue the >discussion. Having thought some
>about this, I now see that i prefer to keep such discussion public, >which,
of course, is what a discussion group is all about. I believe >that the list
members lose whrn the discussion suddenly become >private. If I am going to
contradict myself or reveal unwittingly that I >can be very schizoid about
*sacriture* (the study and practice of >sacred language), I want to to be
brave enough to do these things >publicly among friends.
Your comment seems very much to the point concerning submission.
While I'm not always sure how much "discusion"
is worth in these matters, I feel that to put ourselves in a position to
look foolish, say, or reveal our arrogance is a part of learning. It does
seem helpful in that we can get this attitude or behavior "out there" so that
we can "see it" or someone can point it out to us.
Part of submission seems to me to consist of being thankful for any
"progress" we may have made and forgiving of our own lack of understanding.
To quote Rumi via Wm. Whitney (thanks,
paneagle! Forgive me for inserting explanations since I dipped in at
different points in the poem and didn't want to foster confusion...):
>Sometimes He weaves knowledge in the Heart
>Sometimes He destroys one's knowledge...
>In the end, when Your (God's) grace opens his (the seeker's) way
>he is saved from changing from color to color.
The "bravery" which you advise, Mackie, could spring from such a realisation.
with appreciation,
Jules
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Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 12:55:19 -0500 (EST)
From: "B. Taylor"
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To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: Re: submission
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On Mon, 8 Jan 1996 MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu wrote:
> As a response to my request to Mateen that she give us her personal
> sense of Ibn 'Arabi's "Whoso Knoweth Himself..."--Brad suggested we consult
> Ibn 'Arabi's *What the Seeker Needs*. While I don't disagree necessarily
> with Brad's suggestion, I do hope that Mateen will still be willing to give
> us her sense of Ibn 'Arabi's formula. I guess I am asking for her
> individuality on this point since I do not believe that her own individuality
> will diminish the universality of Ibn 'Arabi's meaning.
and
> My point is that Brad's reaction to my request to Mateen was to tell
> which book of Ibn 'Arabi's to consult. But at this quiet moment I want to
> consult the text of Mateen's mind, since it iwas Mateen herself who suggested
> that there are a myriad of attendant meaninings to the Muhyiddin's formula. I
> agree with her and simply wish to wish ones she senses to be inherent in the
> formula. I believe that true Sufism is not afraid of this kind of discussion.
Dear Mackie:
I apologize for not making my intentions clearer. In making reference
to Ibn 'Arabi, I did not intend to diminish the universality of Mateen's
meaning. When you posed the question my heart sped up, because I had
just read that essay not to long ago and was excited about the discussion
that was (and has) begun. I had read Ibn 'Arabi's experience with it and
without it my experience would be different (not "better", just different).
My suggestion was for those of us have little interaction with Sufi
community aside from books and maybe this email list. Some "masterless"
Sufis visit the tomb's of dead Saints, for now I visit their tomes. I had
no intention of suggesting we deny "individuality" for the sake of some
spiritual "authority". By "authority", I mean in the sense of "more
vailid" not in the sense of "more experienced" like a master. The only
"Authority" that seems to be "more valid" is Allah (al-Haqq). There is
no god but God - la ilaha illa'llah. Atleast this is my understanding.
When I turn the computer off in a minute, its back to the greater jihad. When
my nafs is "winning" (almost all of the time!) and I feel the pain of
"seperation", questions begin to bubble, I seek answers in more questions, in
discussions in books, in discussions in my heart. When I can not "read" the
"signs", I turn to those who have experience in the path where my
questions lie - Allah, Mohammad, Ibn 'Arabi, other travelers, myself (from
the perspective of tashbih/nearness) in order to remember or be
reminded of Truth (al-Haqq).
My "individualality" is Allah's (from the perspective of tashbih/nearness),
your's, Mateen's, Ibn 'Arabi's and maybe something of the "Third Force" that
James mentioned in another post - maybe a mixing of all the signs that
hints at previously unnoticed or forgotten meanings or as Borges writes
"that imminence of revelation that is not yet produced."
>
> Once in a while, after I have posted a thought on a topic, some people
> have contacted me privately to continue the discussion. Having thought some
> about this, I now see that i prefer to keep such discussion public, which, of
> course, is what a discussion group is all about.
>From my experience, public versus private tends to come from a fear of being
"misunderstood". When I read your reply, my fears were confirmed. Your
interpretation being far from my intention created all sorts of problems
inside of me. But then I began to wonder about these feelings that you
have so beautifully inspired (Praise belongs to Allah). I begin to wonder
about why I do not want to be interepreted as belittling someone's perspective.
And then, I thought, well in order for this to happen, your comments had to
come in conflict with my nafs (lower self) and from the existence of some
sort of pride about being associated with an idea that I percieved as being
correct or more benificial to be associated with. In other words,
defining or delimiting myself with ideas of belief that were not for Allah.
Since this "knowing of my self" did not help me to "know God" then I relized
that sneaky Iblis was up to no good again! So, I've now experienced an
aspect of the importance of misuderstanding.
This reminds me then of some of the reading I've been doing about
Qalanders who dressed and often acted in "impious" ways in order to hide
piety and not flaunt or boast it. It seemed they wanted to create
misunderstanding so as not to be involved with the egotism of wanting to
be seen as pious before society.
> Brad wondered about some publishing or clearing houses that we might
> be familiar with. One that i would suggest is
> BESHARA FOUNDATION
>
Thanks!
Love,
Brad
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 9 23:20:31 1996
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From: MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu
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09 Jan 1996 17:20:31 -0600 (CST)
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 1996 17:20:31 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: submission
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
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Brad--
I appreciate *all* of your understanding and the nearness of your
way of expressing it. The list has grown though the enhancement from your
words.
Mateen--
I understand that you are Mateen Taher. I apologize for getting it
wrong, Ya Taher.
=Mackie=
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 10 01:01:18 1996
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Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 20:01:18 -0500
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To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: Re: egotism
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dear Michael,
In a message dated 96-01-09 17:33:48 EST, you write:
>Perhaps I am only revealing my own character here but I assume that this
>problem of pride is universal. I was asking my shaykh about this problem.
>He said, "This is why we must always say astaghfurallah (allah forgive me)
>after each good deed."
>Whenever we deside 'to be' something; pious, impious, noble, muslim,
>good, sufi, whatever, we are commiting idolatry. We can not help it.
>It can not be avoided. When we say 'I' to anything, we are adolaters.
To start in a Buddhist way, we might say that we are moving into mistakenly
creating an identity out of what is a moment in reality: a drop in rich
reality that is Allah/God, and that the confusion (sin=poorly aimed thought
or actions that follow from such thinking, isn't that the etymology in the
Arabic??) is to separate an aspect of reality/Allah/God from the totality,
ripping asunder [where did *that* word come from??? ... :-) ....] the
original divine oneness. (I wouldn't say that this ended in a particularly
Buddhist way!)
>
>aside->>> This may be why there is no "original sin", ie, a newborn
>has no 'I' hence no sin.
>
>The lowest man does not sin, he can not, no more than a cow can or
I must have more of a sense that all men (human beings) --- even the "lowest"
[whatever that might be] ---, have the capacity to split from the Oneness,
and if this is sinning, then I take it all men can make this confusion. Or
are you saying something else?
Jinavamsa
>a dog. He is an animal without sin. Sin is only for those that have.
>So we must thank allah for our sins because they are only sins if
>we have knowledge of them and knowledge is a gift.
>
>-Michael-
>
>
>
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 10 02:01:48 1996
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Date: Tue, 09 Jan 1996 21:01:48 -0500
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
From: James McCaig
Subject: Re: trinity inrelation to everything
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At 01:11 AM 1/9/96 -0600, MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu wrote:
Dear Sisters and Brothers,
Reading the interesting comments of Mackie Blanton and others on this
subject I was reminded of this passage from THE GATHAS (p 102) by Hazrat
Inayat Khan. No doubt the trinity has mystical significance to many
religions and ways of thinking and has been symbolized by the triangle in
many cultures.
THE SYMBOLISM OF THE TRIANGLE
"The triangle represents the beginning, the continuous and the end. The
triangle is the sign of life which has appeared in three forms, of which the
idea of the Trinity is symbolical. The idea of these three aspects of life
has existed for a very long time among Hindus, who named it Trimurti. As in
the Christian church the Trinity consists of the Father, the Son and the
Holy Ghost, so among Hindus the Trimurti consists of Brahma, Vishnu and
Mahesh: Brahma the Creator, Vishnu the Sustainer and Mahesh or Shiva, the
Destroyer. By the word Destroyer destruction is not meant but change.
The triangle in all its forms is the basic outline of all form that exists
in the world. The triangle has a horizontal line in it and a perpendicular
line, and two triangles can very well form a square. The hand, the head,
the leg, the palm, the foot all show in their form the triangle as the
principal outline. In the leaf, fruit, tree or mountain the triangle is the
outline.
The triangle is the riddle which has within it the secret of this life of
variety. But for these three different aspects, which stand opposite each
other, man would not be able to enjoy life; at the same time it is these
three aspects again which are the cause of all the illusion; and if the
riddle of the idea of trinity has been solved and out of trinity unity has
become manifest, then the purpose of this idea of trinity is fulfilled. One
can understand this by realizing the truth that it is not three that are one
but one that is three. The beginning and end of all things is one, it is
the repetition of one which makes two and it is this division which produces
three. In this riddle of the idea of trinity lies the secret of the whole life.
The three aspects in which life has manifested and of which the triangle is
the symbol are the knower, the known and the knowing faculty -- the seer,
the seen and the faculty of seeing."
Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington
Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore
United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi
jmccaig@worldweb.net
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 10 05:05:24 1996
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From: ZIAulHUQ@aol.com
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Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 00:05:24 -0500
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To: tariqas@world.std.com
Subject: Tariqats in Turkey ?
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Salaam Aleikum,
I will be visiting Turkey this spring, and would appreciate any contacts
anyone could provide me with . I am most interested in meeting Mevelvis, but
will go where Allah leads, so contacts with any tariqat would be of help.
YA HU,
Z
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 10 10:23:29 1996
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Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 10:24:29 +0001 (EST)
From: Steve H Rose
Subject: status of sufi list at think.net
To: tariqas@world.std.com
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Assalamu alaikum.
Can anyone tell me the definite status of the sufi list at think.net? Is
it still running? What is the subscription info? I tried sometime back
based upon my information, but it appeared to be correct. Insh'Allah, I
need to be able to share correct information with others.
Thanks!
habib rose
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 9 21:56:39 1996
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From: mmoore@antares.Tymnet.COM (Michael J. Moore)
Message-Id: <9601092156.AA03582@kirin.Tymnet.COM>
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: egotism
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> This reminds me then of some of the reading I've been doing about
> Qalanders who dressed and often acted in "impious" ways in order to hide
> piety and not flaunt or boast it. It seemed they wanted to create
> misunderstanding so as not to be involved with the egotism of wanting to
> be seen as pious before society.
>
But still he must be involved in the egotism of thinking himself 'good' for
his efforts. It seems that in all 'good' acts there is some pride. Even
if we pray in a closet 'not to be seen of men' we will be proud of
our hiding.
Perhaps I am only revealing my own character here but I assume that this
problem of pride is universal. I was asking my shaykh about this problem.
He said, "This is why we must always say astaghfurallah (allah forgive me)
after each good deed."
Whenever we deside 'to be' something; pious, impious, noble, muslim,
good, sufi, whatever, we are commiting idolatry. We can not help it.
It can not be avoided. When we say 'I' to anything, we are adolaters.
aside->>> This may be why there is no "original sin", ie, a newborn
has no 'I' hence no sin.
The lowest man does not sin, he can not, no more than a cow can or
a dog. He is an animal without sin. Sin is only for those that have.
So we must thank allah for our sins because they are only sins if
we have knowledge of them and knowledge is a gift.
-Michael-
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 10 18:05:25 1996
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Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 10:05:25 -0800
From: mateens@sybase.com (Mateen Siddiqui)
Message-Id: <9601101805.AA03023@serii.sybase.com>
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: Re: Tariqats in Turkey ?
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wa alaykum salam,
You can meet with Naqshbandis in Istanbul, Konya
and Cyprus. Simply go in any large mosque and ask
for Sheik Nazim Kibrisi's people. Insha-Allah someone
will know one of them. In Fatih Mahala of Istanbul
there is a Naqshbandi Mosque of Shaykh Esat as well.
Ask around for directions, as most people in Fatih
District are religious.
--mateen siddiqui
________________________________________
Naqshbandi-Haqqani Sufi Foundation
URL: http://www.best.com/~informe/haqqani/haqqani.html [ in 9 languages]
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 10 19:56:23 1996
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Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 11:56:23 -0800
From: mateens@sybase.com (Mateen Siddiqui)
Message-Id: <9601101956.AA03069@serii.sybase.com>
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: Re: Yusuf Ali translation
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Abi'l-Khayr,
I beleive the changes were only in Saudi editions put out in the past
15 or so years. They have removed the attribution of the commentary
or translation to Syed Yusuf Ali and I guess this justifies them
removing what they like of his commentary and modifying his translation.
There is a very recent edition which has the offending passage on
purity. I think it only came out in 1995. It has more offending
commentary than that, in relation to beliefs about God, but I
won't go into those right now.
--mateen siddiqui
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 10 21:06:38 1996
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Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 13:06:38 -0800
From: mmoore@antares.Tymnet.COM (Michael J. Moore)
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To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: Re: egotism
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>
> >The lowest man does not sin, he can not, no more than a cow can or
>
> I must have more of a sense that all men (human beings) --- even the "lowest"
> [whatever that might be] ---, have the capacity to split from the Oneness,
> and if this is sinning, then I take it all men can make this confusion. Or
> are you saying something else?
> Jinavamsa
I feel that a person with no free-will should not be held accountable.
A person who has no free-will does not have the capacity to 'split from the
Oneness'. {In fact, nothing can split from the oneness, it is only our
vanity that allows us to believe we can. (IMHO)}. The only people
who have free will are those that have given it to Allah and here is
a real paradox. In order to have free will, you must give it away.
Only when you don't have it do you have it. We are free to do only
one thing and that is to deny our free will.
I just felt I *had* to say that. ;-)
---------------
The more powerful the truth, the greater it's potential for harm if
perverted even in the most minutest way. From what I understand,
this has been the fate of Islam.
-Michael-
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 10 22:43:25 1996
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From: MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu
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Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 16:43:25 -0600 (CST)
Subject: "Original" Sin
To: TARIQAS@world.std.com
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I have no idea whether or not there is such a thing as "original
sin"; but I do know that the original concept of this sin was not that it
was a concrete *something*, i.e., a sin itself. The original concept of
"Original Sin" (still taught among Eastern Orthodox Christians) is that it
is not a sin in itself but the inheritance of the ability to sin. So I
suppose that the observation among us that there is no "original sin" since
"newborns have no 'I'--hence, no sin" is a correct one. We inherit the
ability to have an 'I' and, therefore, we also *inherit* the ability to sin.
=Mackie Blanton=
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 10 23:21:43 1996
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From: MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu
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Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 17:21:43 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Michael's Paradox
To: TARIQAS@world.std.com
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Michael's observation about free will is a very powerful one, and
well put. The only freedom we have is the freedom to deny free will. When
we deny free will, we deny Allah. Not desiring to deny Allah means that we
give our free will to Allah. So to have free will means that we believe in
Allah. To believe in Allah means that we give our free will to Allah. Hence,
there is no sin, only denial or belief. If we believe, we submit our free
will freely. If we believe, we can do no other. Only when we don't have
free will did we once have it. We are free to do only one thing and that is
to deny Allah, our free will.
This is beautiful. I even now understand the power in being drawn to
quote rather than explain and discusss an idea. My first compulsion was to
quote Michael all over again--again and again, because nothing seemed more
beautiful than the words themselves. But I resisted and chose to paraphrase
them in order to enter them.
Please forgive my self-delusion. But my heart is soaring at this
moment. Thank you Michael. Allahhuuma.
=Mackie Blanton=
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Jan 11 00:39:51 1996
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Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 18:39:51 -0600 (CST)
From: Jawad Qureshi
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Subject: Re: Tariqats in Turkey ?
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On Wed, 10 Jan 1996 ZIAulHUQ@aol.com wrote:
> Salaam Aleikum,
>
> I will be visiting Turkey this spring, and would appreciate any contacts
> anyone could provide me with . I am most interested in meeting Mevelvis, but
> will go where Allah leads, so contacts with any tariqat would be of help.
>
> YA HU,
> Z
>
Assalamo alaikum,
I have many contacts in Turkey. They are all located in Ankara, though,
which is not the home of that many Tariqas. If you still want their
numbers, I can send them to you.
Salam,
Jawad.
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Jan 11 00:24:05 1996
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Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 16:24:05 -0800
From: mmoore@antares.Tymnet.COM (Michael J. Moore)
Message-Id: <9601110024.AA04057@kirin.Tymnet.COM>
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: Re: "Original" Sin
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Greetings,
=Mackie Blanton=
>
> I have no idea whether or not there is such a thing as "original
> sin"; but I do know that the original concept of this sin was not that it
> was a concrete *something*, i.e., a sin itself. The original concept of
> "Original Sin" (still taught among Eastern Orthodox Christians) is that it
> is not a sin in itself but the inheritance of the ability to sin. So I
> suppose that the observation among us that there is no "original sin" since
> "newborns have no 'I'--hence, no sin" is a correct one. We inherit the
> ability to have an 'I' and, therefore, we also *inherit* the ability to sin.
This certainly seems a more humane concept than what I was taught by the
Roman Catholic nuns in fifth grade catechism. They taught that the soul was
like a white sheet and that sin was like a big black stain on the sheet.
{Malcom X is turning in his grave.}
We are born, they taught, with the stain of 'original sin' and the only way
to remove it was through the sacrament of 'Holy Roman' baptism. I don't
recall whether 'original sin' was a mortal sin or a venial sin or was
in a class by itself but you can be sure *it was serious*! If you died
with this sin on your soul, you would go straight to hell.
I asked one of the nuns once for clarification on this issue. I said,
"Do you mean that all of those Protestants in building next to us
are going to hell?" She squirmed a bit. Being a precocious lad, I
enjoyed the moment. I had her like a worm on a hook; she would have
to say it. Another moment and then a diminutive 'yes' was her answer.
Astaghferallah; I haven't always been as holy as I am today. ;-)
-Michael-
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Jan 11 00:39:51 1996
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Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 18:39:51 -0600 (CST)
From: Jawad Qureshi
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To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Cc: tariqas@world.std.com
Subject: Re: Tariqats in Turkey ?
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On Wed, 10 Jan 1996 ZIAulHUQ@aol.com wrote:
> Salaam Aleikum,
>
> I will be visiting Turkey this spring, and would appreciate any contacts
> anyone could provide me with . I am most interested in meeting Mevelvis, but
> will go where Allah leads, so contacts with any tariqat would be of help.
>
> YA HU,
> Z
>
Assalamo alaikum,
I have many contacts in Turkey. They are all located in Ankara, though,
which is not the home of that many Tariqas. If you still want their
numbers, I can send them to you.
Salam,
Jawad.
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Jan 11 00:38:53 1996
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Date: Wed, 10 Jan 96 19:38:53 EST
From: Jim Henry in Chattanooga 423-755-4398
Subject: Re: Tariqats in Turkey ?
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
In-Reply-To: <960109234841_87024507@emout06.mail.aol.com>
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On Wed, 10 Jan 1996 00:05:24 -0500 said:
>Salaam Aleikum,
>
>I will be visiting Turkey this spring, and would appreciate any contacts
>anyone could provide me with . I am most interested in meeting Mevelvis, but
>will go where Allah leads, so contacts with any tariqat would be of help.
>
>YA HU,
>Z
I would suggest going to Konya an visiting the Mevlevi Mosque
and let your interests be known.
Talk to the workers in the carpet shops on the street in front of
the mosuqe (which is considered a museum, officially).
Ask for a man named Hassan Hussein.
Visit the Dervish Brothers carpet shop on a side alley
behind the main street.
There is a direct train from Istanbul to Konya.
Buses are also an option.
I trust you will enjoy and learn!
I know Allah will be with you.
JIM
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Jan 11 04:18:18 1996
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Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 23:18:18 -0500
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To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
From: dances
Subject: Re: submission
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This reminds me then of some of the reading I've been doing about
Qalanders who dressed and often acted in "impious" ways in order to hide
piety and not flaunt or boast it. It seemed they wanted to create
misunderstanding so as not to be involved with the egotism of wanting to
be seen as pious before society.
Thanks to all for such good discussian , It is helpful listening to all
these good hearts in print.
just brief comment on the above passage. Reminds me of Gurdjieffs mention
of the way of Malamat (blame). Deliberately seeking blame for the above
reasons and maybe more. Guess its natural for human beings to fawn over
power possessing beings whether spiritual or material power beings -The Way
of Malamat- was used to hide power from those around these beings.
Alhamdi'lah
James of the Nimatullahi Sufi Order
Love becomes perfect only when it transcends itself --
Becoming One with its object;
Producing Unity of Being.
Hakim Jami (1414-1492)
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To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
From: dances
Subject: Recurrance (an expanding ripple into the pond of time)
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Ya Haqq
Afew posts back there was mentioned reincarnation.I had mentioned
recurrance as an alternative approach. Here is a nice summation of etrnal
recurrance in relation to P.D. Ouspenskii a disciple of G.I. Gurdjieff.
james
>
>THE THEORY OF ETERNAL RETURN
>
>A central belief of Ouspensky is the doctrine known variously as eternal
>return or recurrence.
>Surprisingly, in spite of the relative obscurity of this idea the theory
>has nevertheless had adherents
>throughout the ages and influenced many notable thinkers. The most recent
>well known champion
>of the theory was James Joyce whose novel , 'Finnegans Wake', is based
>wholly on the idea. As a
>philosophical tenant we generally associate the name of Nietzsche with
>this view, and in spite of
>the relatively lesser impact this idea has had upon many of his academic
>commentators, within the
>corpus of Nietzsche's writings it has been recognized as central by
>certain influential reviewers.12
>In Western thought the doctrine is associated by reference to Pythagorus
>through the commentaries
>of Eudemus of Rhodes, by Archytas of Tarentum, perhaps Plotinus, and the
>sixth-centurian
>Neoplatonist, Simplicius. With its emphasis on eschatology modern
>Christianity never supported
>the doctrine, although Ouspensky cites several passages within the Gospels
>which, in his opinion,
>indicate that Christ himself was conversant with the notion of repetition,
>and he offers a passage in
>Origen's 'On First Principles' as an indication of early Christianity's
>attempt to discredit the idea.
>13 Recurrence as a cosmogonical hypothesis was never considered tenable,
>although as a moral
>foundation it possesses a certain appeal. That is, if all actions are
>repeated eternally the imperative
>to maximize one's condition might be heightened. Still, with few
>exceptions this too was found
>lacking as a foundation of any deontic theory, and today the average man
>would be surprised to
>encounter the idea. Of course for Ouspensky recurrence was neither a
>physical nor a moral theory
>but was, instead, a metaphysical ground flowing from his metageometrical
>conception of the form
>of the world.
>
>Looking back on our speculative discussion regarding the four dimensional
>representation of our
>life we recall that any four dimensional figure necessarily encompasses
>the entire life of a thing and
>is not just a series of discrete moments hung together by memory. To
>understand the relation of the
>theory of recurrence to Ouspensky's so called "new model" let us imagine a
>specific geometrical
>form in its relation to our life. We start with the line making up the
>life of a man. One point, birth,
>begins in the year 1900 while the line ends with the death of the subject
>in, say, 1970. The entire
>figure of the complete life of the man constitutes a four dimensional
>form. Now, let us curve the
>line into an angle of 360 degrees. Here, the end of the line connects to
>the beginning. Death ends in
>birth. A man is born in 1900, lives his life, dies in 1970 and is reborn
>again in 1900 encountering
>the exact same circumstances of his previous existence. Consciousness
>limited to the three
>dimensional phenomenal form does not recognize the endlessness of the loop
>of existence, but only
>the static moment. A man understands his birth but never comprehends what
>could come "before"
>nor, with any real knowledge, does he understand what awaits "after" death
>even though,
>depending upon his life circumstances, there exist numerous "religious"
>expositions regarding the
>supposed afterlife which he might embrace with varying degrees of confidence..
>
>Embracing the fixity of recurrence would seemingly negate any possibility
>of real change or
>evolution in the state of an individual man for if one is destined to
>relive one's life over in all
>aspects can anyone hope to escape the hand he or she is dealt? This is an
>open question but one
>Ouspensky attempts to address with the doctrine of possibilities. That is,
>at every moment in time
>various possibilities of action present themselves, at least potentially.
>As we move through time a
>set course unfolds consisting in the actualization of certain
>possibilities. Certainly, as long as we
>remain unconscious to the several possibilities inherent within each
>moment we are unwittingly
>carried along within our particular time. If alternate life circumstances
>are even possible it can only
>occur after the attainment of a level of consciousness which allows an
>individual to recognize the
>potential for change inherent within each moment of one's life. For
>Ouspensky, man as he
>currently exists is tied to a particular line and has absolutely no
>possibility of changing his
>condition, however it is the purpose of the esoteric idea to show a way
>out of our current
>unproductive cycle of recurrence. 14
>
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Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 20:39:10 +0700 (GMT)
From: Iljas Baker - SH
To: tariqas@world.std.com
Subject: Introduction
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Assalamu alaikum.
As a new member I would like to introduce myself. I converted to Islam
just over 20 years ago. I am interested in the inner dimension of Islam
and in living this in the context of a late twentieth century
secular society-- otherwise it is an illusion. How to keep our heart open
in such a society is a question which challenges me. Our hejira now must
surely be
an inner one for there is no better place out there to go to. As Rumi
says: "Each and every part of the world is a snare
for the fool and a means of deliverance for the wise." He also said:
"Whatever purifies you is the correct path--I will not try to define it."
Yes, there is great hope in my heart still! I look forward to hearing
your stories.
Regards,
Ilyas
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Jan 11 14:28:18 1996
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Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 09:28:18 -0500
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com, tariqas@facteur.std.com
From: James McCaig
Subject: Re: Recurrance (an expanding ripple into the pond of time)
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At 01:00 AM 1/11/96 -0500, dances wrote:
>Ya Haqq
>
>Afew posts back there was mentioned reincarnation.I had mentioned
>recurrance as an alternative approach. Here is a nice summation of etrnal
>recurrance in relation to P.D. Ouspenskii a disciple of G.I. Gurdjieff.
>
>james
>
>
>>
Ouspensky articulates a terrifying vision here. Caught on this treadmill we
become industrial puppets, playthings for a distant, separate and
unreachable God. Let's hope that the Sufi view, with God within us and
accessible holds true.
Warm regards,
Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington
Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore
United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi
jmccaig@worldweb.net
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Jan 11 15:47:10 1996
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To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
From: dances
Subject: Re: Recurrance (an expanding ripple into the pond of time)
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This message I posted to alt.consciouness.4th-way for those that talk of
gurdjieff system as a shock... maybe it be good shock for you too :)
sometimes talk is good for reflection...other times we must be aware of our
physical sensations...that is the one thing I greatly admire Gurdjieff
system.
unfortunately I am aware of what I mention down below in this article...My
awareness is habitual...I am stuck with this awareness. Perhaps you also
see...you do not have head yet all those near to you you see do have heads
and the greastest mystery is to see that they are all of them exactly like
you they have no heads such as you do not.:)
This is my condition when Sufism knocked at my door.
you reading this... for a minute think you can do...that you are
awake...that you feel the seat on your ass...you sense all of your
aches...that you are irritable OR whatever fleeting negative emotions are
going on WHY WHY????
The systems instuctions can act as a FORCE not allowing you increase of
awareness if there is any of your habitul negativity is settled on these
,possibily , new ideas.
WHERE IS YOUR HEAD..WHERE IS YOUR HEAD..WHERE IS YOUR HEAD..WHERE IS YOUR HEAD
IF YOU COULD SEE THAT YOU ARE HEADLESS ...you would see that everything in
front of you is your head...DON'T TRY TO FIGURE...SENSE IT...SLOW DOWN
...SLOW DOWN
USE YOUR PERIPHIAL VISION MORE , IT WILL HELP STOP THOUGHTS.
look at the person near you or cross the street...do you not see that they
are different from you? They ...all of them...have head... you do
NOT!...all of them die...you do not die...They might pass out of your
circle of recurrance that is all....They FOR THEMSELVES ARE THE SAME AS
YOU...each person the same ...NO HEAD...BUT you maybe easier to
realize...keeping actual physical awareness may help in transforming
hydrogens... but slyman has secret for source of higher hydrogens
accessible to us here at the bottom of this deep dark gravity well.
if this confuse...you not aware...not awake to see you alone have no
head...How can you walk a mile in other's shoes w/o actually being in your
own shoes.
You may say to reflect these words from entering you...what authority do I have?
Good question! But don't reflect. I do not have head AND "I" know it FIAT LUX
There is no god but god and Mohammed is his prophet.
Should you catch but a glimpse of Him,
you'd lose your mind, and should you see Him fully,
you'd lose your very being.
Shibli
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Jan 12 11:31:21 1996
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To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
From: "K.Ahmad"
Subject: Introduction
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Assalamu alaikum.
Greetings To All,
When I first saw the word tariqas for a discussion group, I thought to
myself what a great title. It brings to mind different paths, ways and
choices, all towards one goal. The Allmighty has given us the option, we can
burn in the fire or have the fire burn within us. We all have inborn
capabilities and possibilities which we should not deny. Often we feel
desires, to which there is no end. When they are not fullfilled we feel
melancholy, we forget if we control our desires we control our pain. Another
human trait is to think of tomorrow and linger on yesterday, we forget that
yesterday becomes the never alterable and tomorrow is the mirror of today.
Iqbal puts it this way:
O Heart! How long will you follow
The foolish Moth's game?
And encompassing the Candle,
by Self-negligence,
Worship the same?
Now open your Eyes
Upon yourself,
And burn yourself in
Your own flame:
For 'tis no use jumping into
Another's fleeting Flame!
____________________________________
You always ran to his lane
O Heart! O Heart!!
And when you go
To your Beloved,
Alone I remain,
O Heart! O Heart!!
Every moment you create
New desires and new Aims
Hence you give me noyhing
But Disapointment
and inner pain,
O Heart! O Heart!!
____________________________________
A wise old man gave me
This piece of Advice
"Make much of your Present Time
For every "To-day" of yours
Is a Message from "To-morrow"!
I look forward to encountering all of your "tariqas".
All The Best
Kaleem
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