From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Dec 31 18:21:11 1995
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Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 10:21:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Lilyan Ila
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Cc: tariqas@world.std.com
Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth and posting of writings
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asalaam-u-aleikum
Amin to all of above!
Lily
From Majordomo-Owner@world.std.com Sun Dec 31 19:44:07 1995
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--
Zamyat Kirby has been added to tariqas.
No action is required on your part.
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 02:26:28 1996
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>I'm not sure what to do about this situation. There seem to be two
>different "camps" here -- those that value the many postings that have
>been contributed by Fouad Haddad, and those that would prefer that these
>postings not be quite so voluminous.
>One alternative that might make sense would be to publish such types of
>materials over the Web, and to simply announce their presence, from time
>to time, in tariqas -- so that people who were interested and had access
>to the Web could look them up.
Inshallah, we plan to make these postings available on the Haqqani
Foundation Homepage. They can be located via the table of contents at:
http://www.best.com/~informe/mateen/Sufi/toc.html
If you have not stoppped by lately, let me invite you to do so. There are
many articles and translations of classic Islamic and Sufi works, news from
overseas, transcribed lectures, poetry, and material in nine languages. We
invite contributions from all.
Salaams,
Hamza
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 01:43:00 1996
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To: Tariqas
Subject: Rumi 7.121
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 95 20:43:00 -0500
From: "Wm. Whitney"
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-- [ From: Wm. Whitney * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --
The following excerpt is published with permission of
the Publisher, CEL\e Productions.
7.121
O Beloved, whose light
Comes from behind the curtains,
Your light and warmth
Are like summer for us.
Take us to the rose garden,
Our Hearts are fiery like summer.
O salve for the eyes of my soul,
Where did You go?
Come, come, so the water
Will spring from our oven.
Come, so the barren land will be green,
The cemetery will become a garden,
Grapes will ripen
And our bread will cook.
O sun of Soul, sun of Heart,
O Beauty, who shames the sun with Your beauty,
Come and see that sticky mud
Which got stuck to our Soul.
We can't get rid of it.
The kindness of Your face
Has changed so many thorns
Into so many rose gardens
That our faith has been increased
Hundreds of thousands of time.
O eternal Love, in order to deliver this Soul
Out of this dungeon to God,
How beautifully You showed Your face from this mold.
O bright morning,
Make joy during the time of gloom.
Show in the evening
A bright, wonderful day.
You make pearls our of blue beads
And hang them around the mules' necks.
You scare Venus.
You make kings out of the penniless.
Good for You, our Sultan.
Where are the eyes that will see a trace of Your dust?
Where are the ears that hear our testament?
Where is the mind that understands our evidence?
If the Heart sees the beauty of that sugar cane
And tells of its grace and favors,
Taste and flavor will sing songs
At the bottom of every tooth.
The sound of drums coming from the land of Soul
Is saying, "Particles are reaching everywhere,
Sweet basil to sweet basil,
Rose to rose.
Everything is becoming free
>From the jail of our thorns."
(c)1995, CEL\e Productions.
Contact >paneagle@peoples.net<.
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 03:34:33 1996
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Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 20:34:33 -0700
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
From: gws@wolfe.net (George Steffen)
Subject: Re: posting of writings
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Assalam Aleikum
While I am one who has appreciated every article which Fouad Haddad
and others (poems, treatises and voluminous opinion) have posted I suspect
that there are others who a variety of problems with these postings. I
would support two ideas. Those who can post on the www do so and inform us
of those postings if it is not too much trouble to do so. Second, those
who respond to issues on this BB might take a page from the criticism of Mr
Haddad and limit those responses to something like a page or two. We have
been subjected to some long postings and conciseness is definitely a virtue
in communication.
With regards to Mr Haddad and his marvelous work,
Habib N.
>Assalamu alaikum.
>
>I'm not sure what to do about this situation. There seem to be two
>different "camps" here -- those that value the many postings that have
>been contributed by Fouad Haddad, and those that would prefer that these
>postings not be quite so voluminous.
>
>Insh'Allah, perhaps understanding of each other's perspective, and a
>willingness to seek alternatives, might be useful. Among other things,
>not everyone has the same priviledge of access to their email account at
>a low cost or free. If someone pays for the time that it takes to
>download their mail, or pays for the volume of messages received, dozens
>of postings can be quite expensive. On the other hand, many of us
>clearly appreciate the value of these postings, and it is the foundation
>of tariqas that people share what they want (within the bounds of
>Netiquette/Adab, Insh'Allah).
>
>One alternative that might make sense would be to publish such types of
>materials over the Web, and to simply announce their presence, from time
>to time, in tariqas -- so that people who were interested and had access
>to the Web could look them up. That would also have the benefit of
>making these postings better organized than is possible in my email
>reader at least, and turning them into a resource for future use. I
>downloaded a file of all the sincerity postings, myself, because they
>were of particular interest.
>
>How does that sound to folks?
>
>Yours,
>
>habib rose
>host of tariqas
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 06:44:27 1996
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Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 17:44:27 +1100 (EST)
From: Fred Rice
Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
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Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullai wa barakatuh!
On Sun, 31 Dec 1995, Steve H Rose wrote:
> My hypothesis is that some of us, partly from being "Westerners," partly
> from our own psychological states, tend to approach spirituality from the
> point of individual experience -- and to be threatened by truly becoming
> part of a collective entity (afraid of losing our identity or control,
> perhaps). Others of us, partly from being from more traditional
> cultures, partly from our own psychological states, tend to approach
> spirituality from the collective/communcal point of view -- to see our
> growth as intricately related to the growth of others in our group, and
> perhaps to the leadership of a "master" -- and to be threatened by truly
> pursuing our individual experience (afraid of losing our identity as part
> of the group, or the control that comes from the group, perhaps).
>
> Whattyathink?
Hmmm... I definitely have come from a very "individualist" background.
Only recently, though (perhaps a bit over a month ago) have I started
attending dhikr with a Naqshbandi group. I personally have found with
this my own individualistic approach has started to melt away....
I know that when I perform dhikr out loud in a group (as this group does
twice a week), often I find myself in a state where the sounds of
"Allah Allah" contributed by every single person there drowns out in
a sense my own person and I feel I am covered and pierced by
"Allah Allah"... this is the best way I can describe it. From this
experience, I feel less "individualistic" when I am with this group
(but I still feel very "individualistic" with other people in general).
I hope this makes sense! :)
Also, everyone in this group is from a Turkish background, and in this
case all who attend the dhikr are men. I personally still do not feel
100% comfortable with all the hugging and kissing Turkish men indulge
in, but I am getting there! :) After Isha prayer (performed after the
dhikr), they do a beautiful thing... it is a method where everyone gets
to clasp everyone else's hands, and everyone feels closer.
(I am the only one there without a Turkish background, I've noticed....
I may have to learn Turkish, because both the Shaykh of this branch
of the Naqshbandi - Shaykh Mahmud Es'ad Cosan - and his representative
here don't speak English! Also, none of Shaykh Es'ad Cosan's books
have been translated either... but, of the 2 tariqas I know of here
in Melbourne, Australia, this is the one that *to me* seemed to
have more blessing, Allah knows best.)
Wassalam,
Fred
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 11:43:56 1996
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Date: Mon, 01 Jan 1996 22:43:56 +1100
From: D A Rice
Subject: Cyrano de Bergerac
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Cyrano de Bergerac was a man who was kind and gentle inside, but
was ugly looking on the outside. One day, he was just walking,
minding his own business, when a woman came up to him and began to
hurl insults at him for no reason, telling him how horrible and
ugly and evil he was. She hurled abuse on him for a long time, and
Cyrano was just standing patiently listening to it. When she was
finished, Cyrano de Bergerac just bowed to her and said, "And a
nice day to you."
Cyrano de Bergerac knew that all those words she said, which she
thought were the things she saw in him, were really a reflection of
herself.
This story was told by Shaikh Mahmud Es'ad Cosan (pronounced
"Joshan"), a present-day Shaikh of the Naqshbandi Order, as
translated to me from Turkish, during his visit to Australia in
Dec. 1995.
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 12:12:39 1996
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Date: Mon, 01 Jan 1996 23:12:39 +1100
From: D A Rice
Subject: Abu Yazid al-Bistami and the disciple + comment
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Abu Yazid al-Bistami and the disciple
There was a certain ascetic who was one of the great
saints of Bestam. He had his own followers and admirers,
and at the same time he was never absent from the circle
of Abu Yazid al-Bistami. He listened to all his discourses,
and sat with his companions.
One day he remarked to Abu Yazid, "Master, today is thirty
years that I have been keeping constant fast. By night too
I pray, so that I never sleep at all. Yet I discover no
trace of this knowledge of which you speak. For all that I
believe in this knowledge, and I love this preaching."
"If for three hundred years," said Abu Yazid, "you fast by
day and pray by night, you will never realize one atom of
this discourse."
"Why?" asked the disciple.
"Because you are veiled by your own self," Abu Yazid replied.
"What is the remedy for this?" the man asked.
"You will never accept it," answered Abu Yazid.
"I will so," said the man. "Tell me, so that I may do as you
prescribe."
"Very well," said Abu Yazid. "This very hour go and shave your
beard and hair. Take off these clothes you are wearing, and
tie a loincloth of goat's wool about your waist. Hang a bag
of nuts around your neck, then go to the marketplace. Collect
all the children you can, and tell them, `I will give a nut to
everyone who slaps me.' Go round all the city in the same way;
especially go everywhere people know you. That is your cure."
"Glory be to God! There is no god but God," cried the disciple
on hearing these words.
"If a nonbeliever uttered that formula, he would become a
believer," remarked Abu Yazid. "By uttering the same formula
you have become a polytheist."
"How so?" demanded the disciple.
"Because you count yourself too grand to be able to do as I have
said," replied Abu Yazid. "So you have become a polytheist.
You used this formula to express your own importance, not to
glorify God."
"This I cannot do," the man protested. "Give me other directions."
"The remedy is what I have said," Abu Yazid declared.
"I cannot do it," the man repeated.
"Did I not say you would not do it, that you would never obey
me?" said Abu Yazid.
[From the "Memorial of the Saints" of Fariduddin Attar.]
=======================================================================
My comment:
Recently, I spent a day with Shaykh Mahmud Es'ad Cosan, of the
Naqshbandi Sufi order. We (as a group) went on a picnic. During
that picnic, we were walking around with the Shaykh, when he
proceeded on to some playground equipment, and we followed him.
After pausing a short time, he motioned to one man, with his hands,
for him to slide down the slide. He hesitated, to be sure, and
upon receive confirmation he slid down the slide. Soon, we all
followed him down the slide, laughing hysterically at how silly
we all must have looked, a bunch of mature adults, from a boy
in his teens to people in their 50's, sliding down this children's
slide! After this, some of us (including me) spied one of those
twisting slides, and we raced up that and slid down! Meanwhile,
Shaykh Es'ad had gone to a kind of 4-way seesaw and began to
seesaw back and forth with 3 others!
My personal experience of this, was it broke some kind of barrier
in me. Often, as adults, we feel too "proud" to do something like
slide down a children's slide! But we have to break this pride in
ourselves, and rediscover the youthful fun-loving child within!
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 16:01:09 1996
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Date: Mon, 01 Jan 1996 09:01:09 -0700
From: Abdual Alim
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Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullai wa barakatuh!
I have just started my learning of the Sufi way three years ago and come
from a Westernerpoint of view. What I for the most part do not like
about the american way of spirituality is the sheepishly way people
following without question or looking for truth. For the most part
people her in american take the leaders information at face value and if
past examples of this do not have ending that I like. I without
question want to ask question talk about everything going on in my life
to include my dreams.
Wassalam,
Abdual Alim (Alan G. Keyes)
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 12:25:56 1996
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Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 12:26:56 +0001 (EST)
From: Steve H Rose
Subject: Re: Abu Yazid al-Bistami and the disciple + comment
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
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Assalamu alaikum.
Wonderful stories! (the disciple who was too proud to learn, the modern
day Shaykh who is teaching his students to play).
A true Shaykh is one who can identify the lessons needed by his/her
students, and give them as appropriate. These lessons often have to
do with attaining balance in our lives. Insh'Allah, we can all learn to
also identify and learn from those lessons given by the ultimate Shaykh
-- Allah.
Yours,
habib
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 12:43:55 1996
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Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 12:44:55 +0001 (EST)
From: Steve H Rose
Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
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On Mon, 1 Jan 1996, Abdual Alim wrote:
> Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullai wa barakatuh!
>
> I have just started my learning of the Sufi way three years ago and come
> from a Westernerpoint of view. What I for the most part do not like
> about the american way of spirituality is the sheepishly way people
> following without question or looking for truth. For the most part
> people her in american take the leaders information at face value and if
> past examples of this do not have ending that I like. I without
> question want to ask question talk about everything going on in my life
> to include my dreams.
>
There seem to often be apparent contradictions (paradoxes) in people's
nature. For example, Americans (and Westerners to some degree) think of
themselves as individualists, and are in some ways. However, they also
tend to be very susceptible to cults where they loose all their
individuality and critical thinking skills. Perhaps they are really seeking
balance? Is there a way of benefitting from positive aspects of a
relationship to a teacher and to membership in a tariqa without loosing
the ability to make independent judgements when necessary? Can
submitting to a teacher facilitate individual growth? Under what
conditions? Is individual growth the goal? When am I going to shut up
and allow others to answer my questions? :-)
Habib Rose
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 12:59:53 1996
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Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 13:00:53 +0001 (EST)
From: Steve H Rose
Subject: Please don't send carbon copys of messages to tariqas!
To: tariqas@world.std.com
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Assalamu alaikum.
Please try to be very careful not to send carbon copys (cc) of messages
to tariqas -- this results in duplication to everybody on the list.
Thanks!
habib rose
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 18:21:40 1996
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Date: Mon, 01 Jan 1996 13:21:40 -0500
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
From: James McCaig
Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth
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At 09:01 AM 1/1/96 -0700, Abdual Alim wrote:
>Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullai wa barakatuh!
>
>I have just started my learning of the Sufi way three years ago and come
>from a Westernerpoint of view. What I for the most part do not like
>about the american way of spirituality is the sheepishly way people
>following without question or looking for truth.
Try this way!
What is to be done O Moslems? for I do not recognize myself
I am neither Christian, nor Jew, nor Gabr , nor Moslem.
I am not of the East, nor of the West, nor of the land, nor of the sea;
I am not of nature's mint, nor of the circling heavens.
I am not of earth, nor of water, nor of air, nor of fire;
I am not of the empyrean, nor of the dust, nor of existence, nor of entity.
I am not of India, nor China, nor of Bulgaria, nor of Saqsin ;
I am not of the kingdom of Iraqain, nor of the country of Khorasan .
I am not of this world, nor of the next, nor of Paradise, nor of Hell;
I am not of Adam, nor of Eve, nor of Eden and Rizwan .
My place is the Placeless, my trace is the Traceless;
'Tis neither body nor soul, for I belong to the soul of the Beloved
Jallalludin Rumi
Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington
Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore
United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi
jmccaig@worldweb.net
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 18:21:43 1996
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Date: Mon, 01 Jan 1996 13:21:43 -0500
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
From: James McCaig
Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth
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At 09:01 AM 1/1/96 -0700, Abdual Alim wrote:
>Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullai wa barakatuh!
>
>I have just started my learning of the Sufi way three years ago and come
>from a Westernerpoint of view. What I for the most part do not like
>about the american way of spirituality is the sheepishly way people
>following without question or looking for truth. For the most part
>people her in american take the leaders information at face value and if
>past examples of this do not have ending that I like. I without
>question want to ask question talk about everything going on in my life
>to include my dreams.
>
OR TRY THIS WAY!
SONG OF THE SOUL
I am neither ego nor reason, I am neither mind nor thought,
I cannot be heard nor cast into words nor by smell nor sight ever caught:
In light and wind I am not found, nor yet in earth and sky -
Consciousness and joy incarnate, Bliss of the Blissful am I.
I have no name, I have no life, I breathe no vital air,
No elements have molded me, no bodily sheath is my lair;
I have no speech, no hands and feet, nor means of evolution -
Consciousness and joy am I, and bliss in dissolution.
I cast aside hatred and passion, I conquered delusion and greed;
No touch of pride caressed me, so envy never did breed;
Beyond all faiths, past reach of wealth, past freedom, past desire,
Consciousness and Joy am I, and bliss is my attire.
Virtue and vice, or pleasure and pain are not my heritage,
nor sacred texts, nor offerings, nor prayer, nor pilgrimage;
I am neither food, nor eating, nor yet the eater am I -
Consciousness and joy incarnate, Bliss of the Blissful am I.
I have no misgiving of death, no chasms of race divide me,
No parent ever called me child, no bond of birth ever tied me;
I am neither disciple nor master, I have no kin, no friend -
Consciousness and joy am I, and merging in Bliss is my end.
Neither knowable, knowledge, nor knower am I, formless is my form,
I dwell within the senses but they are not my home;
Ever serenely balanced, I am neither free nor bound -
Consciousness and joy am I, and Bliss is where I am found.
SANKARACHARYA
Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington
Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore
United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi
jmccaig@worldweb.net
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 22:06:35 1996
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From: ASHA101@aol.com
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Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 17:06:35 -0500
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To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: postings and individual/communal
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Dear Habib,
you strike an interesting note -
>>>Insh'Allah, tariqas can serve as a vehicle for us to learn to understand
and appreciate our different approaches to spiritual growth -- and our own
biases as well.<<<<
Insh'Allah, Tariqas does not become a competition for who can post the most
writting of their teacher, who who can honor their theacher the most! That to
me is individualism which carries no respect for any other individual. Maybe
this culture does value the individual freedom more highly than some other
cultures, I'm not sure that is bad at all. Perhaps the most difficult thing
to learn in excercising individual freedom is to respect the boundaries of
the Other. I put the word 'other' in caps, because the ultimate other is the
Divine Other, the acceptance of Whom leads to oneness, the domination of Whom
will keep one forever from oneness.
I think that your comment >>>it is the foundation
of tariqas that people share what they want (within the bounds of
Netiquette/Adab, Insh'Allah).<<< says this with great wisdom.
Also, you strike an interesting theme in posing the communal/individual
question. This dual focus may actually reveal, underlying these poles, core
values. I mean, individuality or comunality are not good or bad in themselves
but can be argued to be good or useful only with respect to value of which
they represent one pole.
One of these values is the value of freedom with respect to fulfilment,
unfoldment and purpose; the other is a value that is perhaps more Eastern,
could it be honor?
I think it can be shown that while freedom is valued in the East, it is
generally not a core vlaue there. I'm not positive what the more eastern
value is, and therefore not sure wether those in the west share it as a core
value or not. The point is, though, that in either case (honor or freedom)
obviously both a sense of comunality/hierarchy and individuality need to
exist and achieve a balance. Both, also, need thier boundaries.
Such arguments as clarity and heart, sucinctness and love, simply represent
these two poles and again both need to be present and in ballance inorder for
the underlying ideal to be truely alive. This is what sufis have allways
done, (to, more or less, quote a friend) when the sufis follow both the path
of faith (iman) and infidelity (kufr), prayer and spilling wine on the prayer
carpet, the God-ideal and shattering it, morality, piety and laughing at the
sanctimonious mullas with Nasruddin Hojja, experiencing the holy presence of
ancient masters and "a loaf of bread a book of verse and thou"
Asha
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 22:26:50 1996
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Date: Mon, 01 Jan 1996 16:26:50 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
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The problem for any individual, whether from an individualist or
communalist society, is learning that obedience and humility go together,
and that there is an elemental difference between submission and
submissiveness.
=Mackie Blanton=
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--
mfoster@tyrell.net has unsubscribed from tariqas.
No action is required on your part.
From Majordomo-Owner@world.std.com Tue Jan 2 16:09:27 1996
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From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 2 03:20:14 1996
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To: tariqas@world.std.com, gnosis@netcom.com
Cc: sufi@thinknet.com, cherag-l@sandelman.onix.on.ca
Subject: Free House
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In a message dated 95-12-30 21:36:33 EST, you write:
>Another Free house! This one in Northern Calif. The last one we
> put on this list will go to a Mureed in Seattle next week,
> Inshallah. This one is definitely NOT a fixer upper. It is in one of
>the nicest subdivisions and certainly best maintained PUDs.
>
>Hot Tub and private lake dock. With Cabana on the lake and one at
>the pool.
>2 Bdr 2 Bath in vacation area known as Clearlake in Lake county. This
> house was recently on the market for 99,000. The seller would
> pay moving and closing expenses for anyone interested in this well
>maintined clean clean home.
>No money down and payments could be as low as 500 per month. Will
>consider lease option also. This is aproximately one hour north of
> Santa Rosa.
>
>If you might be interested in something in your area let me
> know and I will look through the inventory. The next one we offer
>will be in Vallejo Calif. 15 minutes from San Raphael, Marin County
> and in the Northbay area of San Francisco, 45 Minutes from Berkely
and
>55 minutes from San Francisco. This could be a good communal
home.
> There are two others in Solano county and one possibly in
Sonoma
>County. contact Michael Gest here and phone is 707 829 3275.
>
>Free means that it is possible to buy this house with no money
> down and that you could have an automatic equity of atleast 10,000
>dollars that we will give as your down payment and you will have no
> closing costs.
>
>
>
>
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 2 16:58:21 1996
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From: NurLuna@aol.com
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Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 11:58:21 -0500
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To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth
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Greetings of Love and Light!
In a message dated 96-01-01, Mackie Blanton wrote:
> The problem for any individual, whether from an individualist or
>communalist society, is learning that obedience and humility go together,
>and that there is an elemental difference between submission and
>submissiveness.
As others have said, Westerners, Americans in particular, look askance at
anything or anyone suggesting that true freedom lies in submission, perhaps
more so than Easterners, perhaps not. Most of the so-called cults that take
hold here have a charismatic leader going his or her "own way", usually
against some sort of enemy which only s/he knows how to defeat, enlisting
other soldiers for the battle. This can be very attractive to the fanatically
individualistic American seeker! One reason why the cult of fundamentalism is
so rampant right now in Christianity, in my opinion.
I was intrigued by your last statement, friend Mackie. Perhaps you could
share with us your experience of the difference between submission and
submissiveness?
your sister Farrunnissa
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 2 16:58:18 1996
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From: NurLuna@aol.com
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To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: Re: posting of writings
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As-salaam aleikum, tariqas family! May blessings of Peace and Joy light your
new year!
I would vote for a Web page repository of brother Faoud's translations.
(Thank you, Brother, for your work of love!) Faoud could let us know when
there was new material available, and a little about the topic, in a posting
to tariqas. Those who don't have Web access could request an email copy if
they wanted to read it.
My continued thanks to brother Habib Rose for his gentle, centered, caring
stewardship of this mailing list. Ya Azim!
Farrunnissa
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 2 19:23:50 1996
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From: Jinavamsa@aol.com
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Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 14:23:50 -0500
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To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth
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hello Habib,
great questions.
I've never felt that you clogged the airwaves (bandwidth) with noise.
I always look forward to reading postings from you.
thanks
Jinavamsa
In a message dated 96-01-01 12:46:28 EST, you write:
> Perhaps they are really seeking
>balance? Is there a way of benefitting from positive aspects of a
>relationship to a teacher and to membership in a tariqa without loosing
>the ability to make independent judgements when necessary? Can
>submitting to a teacher facilitate individual growth? Under what
>conditions? Is individual growth the goal? When am I going to shut up
>and allow others to answer my questions? :-)
>
>Habib Rose
>
>
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From: Abdual Alim
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Subject: re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth
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I a whileago was a member of the Rosicrucian before I became a muslim
then s member of a sufi order. I was not happy with the group mindframe
that the Rosicucian which I did not seem to grow. I was toald about
this level of energy that I was to reach were I would have do dream
which would mean that I would have left my body and was in there realm
learning form them. I did not reach any new spirituality until I joined
with the sufi order and got away from my ego. I found real balance with
the Quran and other teaching given to me on this new path. I do feel
that I have overcome the question of relationship to teacher and
membership in a tariqa because it is based on a independent need for
growth without losing that this growth can only happen when one gives up
thier personal ego and find Allah love and path to Allah.
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 2 06:53:52 1996
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Date: Tue, 02 Jan 1996 01:53:52 -0500
To: tariqas@world.std.com
From: James McCaig
Subject: Re: Cyrano de Bergerac
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At 10:43 PM 1/1/96 +1100, D A Rice wrote:
>
>Cyrano de Bergerac was a man who was kind and gentle inside, but
>was ugly looking on the outside. One day, he was just walking,
>minding his own business, when
Attention is invited to the WEAVER magazine. One of the articles in past
months was about Cyrano de Bergerac by Hazrat Inayat Khan.
The URL for the magazine is: http://hyperlink.com:9000/weaver/
Many interesting articles and anicely designed.
Warm regards,
Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington
Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore
United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi
jmccaig@worldweb.net
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 2 20:33:37 1996
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Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 12:33:37 -0800
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
From: mhermans@mail.sdsu.edu (marcia hermansen)
Subject: Re: Free House
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Dear Michael,
Your postings about houses were very timely for me. I had been thinking of
contacting you because-in sha Allah-I want to get a living space in the Bay
Area.
I look forward to being in touch and discussing the matter further.
aw-s-salam, Marcia Hermansen
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 2 21:34:50 1996
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Date: Tue, 2 Jan 96 16:34:50 EST
From: johara@orie.cornell.edu (Johara Shahabuddin)
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To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth
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Dear everyone,
Salaam aleikum.
I think I am individualistic coz I feel apart from already formed
communities and have not been able to find myself a significant other
despite my years in this world...I like spending time alone to the
surprise and sometimes disapproval of friends (who think that spending
time with them will make me less `neurotic')...but I have a lovely
community of friends here around me, though its not religious,
its an intimate and fulfilling one.
Sometimes I find myself agreeing and sometimes disagreeing with
what a friend thinks, or speaking honestly or keeping my opinion
reserved, telling all or telling selectively...sometimes I act in
a way another wishes me to act against my intuition (trying not to
forsake my judgement but often quite automatically), and sometimes
disagreeing with them and saying nope, cant do that. And to me all these
decisions are somehow questions of submission.
Is submitting to one's teacher the only problem? I think that
each act of ours is in a greater `submission' or in blindness or in hypocrisy.
I dont have a teacher, but am being tortured by the `Submit' of the Book.
I feel that every time one makes a decision to follow the teacher
against one's own wishes and in suspension of rationality, one should
do so consciously...each such decision is a road to learning if carefully
considered before, after it is made. Submission that comes too
easily could be `hypocrisy', and if not carefully thought about and worked
through, could be `blindness'(submissiveness?). At least this is true for
me who is troubled by and thinks round and round in circles when faced with
contradictions in my thinking and my behaviour. I think there are no
people who can submit easily, or once and for all. The questions for all
of us may be different, but ignoring them makes the person regress
spiritually. I think one should take the question in hand and nurse
it, even while one makes decisions without having arised at its answer.
(I loved Paul's poem that seemed to be talking about this.)
But these contradictions within oneself and without: between oneself
and others- can take awfully long to be resolved and are painful if
one makes oneself stay awake and listen to them; so in
the meantime one just has to bear the pain of submission without
the answers. To me the only option to this awful pain is the awfuller one
to not do anything at all to get at having answers.
I read a book by Scott Peck about his experiments with community and
liked it, called A Different Drum. (Although I didnt like the `quick
community' that he seemed to be offering his clients who got together
for these experiments.) One idea he offers: he says that at first
when people get together, there is a false community feeling...everyone
is nice to one another and so on. And then slowly a boredom builds up
that leads to a low energy, depressive state for the community...because
differences that arise are being trivially discarded...and slowly this
builds up into a stage of conflict where if the conflict is worked
through and resolved, there arrives a sense of true community. He perceives
this process to be more accepting of individuals in the `true community'
stage, and leads to growth of the individuals in it...whereas if a group
is stuck in the initial `false' stage, then individuality tends to be lost.
There must be some people out there who have read this work already
so I apologise if I have repeated something they already know. I think
this addresses submissiveness too.
This is my perspective...and I'm looking forward to others writing
about all this, so I can find a cleaner one...
Johara
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 2 23:11:51 1996
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02 Jan 1996 17:11:51 -0600 (CST)
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 1996 17:11:51 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
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Johara's recent posting (2-Jan-1996 16:03:40:80) nicely typifies
not only the concundrum we find ourselves in when we forget that obedience
and humility are a pair, and the conundrum that we find ourselves in we
don't distinguish between submission and submissiveness--she seems to be
self-reflective enough to know when she is losing humility and when she
just can't seem to submit. Her text is worth saving.
In English we have the one verb *to submit*. So we tend to conflate
the two nouns that we can form from this verb, submission and submissiveness,
as if they were synonymous. But they are not, even though they will translate
back into Arabic as *'abd*. Understanding the difference amounts to be able
to feel willingly like a servant and against our will like a slave. The Book
asks us to submit to Allah, to give The Holy One Blessed Be He our complete
sumission, to be His servant. Having given us a free will, God does not,
apparently (Inshallah), expect for us to slavishly submit to His Will, to give
Him unthinking submissiveness.
Within islam, this distinction can often be lost or obscured just
because Islam makes no distinction between a sin and a crime. Hence, because
a sin is also a crime, and because severe crimes demand severe punishment,
sins also demand and require severe punishment, especially, for example,
apostasy. Individualist Westerners often view this conflation of sin and
crime as undemocratic, which means that even if they are Sufis who emrace
The holy Qur'aan, ghey may not be Sufis who embrace the Sharia. Their
Western orientation does not make it easy from them to see the difference
between being a servant of God and His Kalaam and being a slave. In
monotheism, when you are a servant, you are a servant *of* and *to* God.
This quality that is asked of you is one that also asks you to understand
that obdience requires humility of individualist spirit.
Humility + Obedience means that we understand that we should not
put ourselves above our teacher--even when we sense something askew in a
teacher's request, requirement, lesson, desire.
The problem here, of course, lies in being able to discern the
difference between authentic belief and a cultic practice. This offers
a challenge to Sufism, which to many seems to lack authentic Orthodoxy. So
how can we demonstrate that Ibn 'Arabi is as Orthodox as the Prophet (PBUH),
who understood obdience, humility, and submission well enough never to put
themselves--nor their soul, nor the soul of their soul--above The Godhead?
=Mackie Blanton=
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Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 15:14:05 -0800
From: mmoore@antares.Tymnet.COM (Michael J. Moore)
Message-Id: <9601022314.AA00409@kirin.Tymnet.COM>
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth
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> I dont have a teacher, but am being tortured by the `Submit' of the Book.
What do you mean?, Which book? How can a Book torture you?
> The questions for all
> of us may be different, but ignoring them makes the person regress
> spiritually.
Surely on the path we must ignore all questions and we must regress
spiritually. Blessed are the poor in spirit..........
To entertain a question implies that you believe you have an
answer. We have nothing. Even this statement is wrong.
I suggest you find a teacher and don't listen to my advice.
> This is my perspective...and I'm looking forward to others writing
> about all this, so I can find a cleaner one...
> Johara
>
-michael-
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 3 00:04:44 1996
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From: Jinavamsa@aol.com
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Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 19:04:44 -0500
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To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: Re Teachers [was Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth]
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dear Johara, Mackie, Michael, and others,
Re this question of submissive vs. submission, I find this discussion very
good in that it is is raising more questions than giving answers.
Let me raise some comments in context, below. I'll precede them by @@ to mark
them out. I am asking these not to criticize but to learn of your thinking
more clearly (and so to be able to apply them more helpfully in the context
of a spiritual life).
Jinavamsa
CONSIDERING POST 1 of 2 RELATED POSTS:
In a message dated 96-01-02 18:15:16 EST, you write:
>Subj: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth
>Date: 96-01-02 18:15:16 EST
>From: MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu
>To: tariqas@europe.std.com
> Johara's recent posting (2-Jan-1996 16:03:40:80) nicely typifies
>not only the concundrum we find ourselves in when we forget that obedience
>and humility are a pair, and the conundrum that we find ourselves in we
>don't distinguish between submission and submissiveness--she seems to be
>self-reflective enough to know when she is losing humility and when she
>just can't seem to submit. Her text is worth saving.
> In English we have the one verb *to submit*. So we tend to conflate
>the two nouns that we can form from this verb, submission and
submissiveness,
>as if they were synonymous. But they are not, even though they will
>translate
>back into Arabic as *'abd*. Understanding the difference amounts to be able
>to feel willingly like a servant and against our will like a slave. The
Book
@@I was expecting to find you cite two Arabic verbs that would aid you in
differentiating between the (putative) two senses you are trying to separate
here.
>asks us to submit to Allah, to give The Holy One Blessed Be He our complete
>sumission, to be His servant. Having given us a free will, God does not,
>apparently (Inshallah), expect for us to slavishly submit to His Will, to
>give Him unthinking submissiveness.
@@Does this mean that you take Him (I thought Allah was a noun that had no
plural and did not stand as either a masculine or a feminine, but that's a
secondary issue here.) to be expecting us to give Him "thinking
submissiveness". That may be, and if so, I would be interested to learn more
of what this "thinking submissiveness" is. That would make the key contrast
here in the two senses to be the difference between acting thinkingly vs.
doing so unthinkingly (to make up two adverbs for this situation). Is that
your point?
> Within islam, this distinction can often be lost or obscured just
>because Islam makes no distinction between a sin and a crime. Hence,
because
>a sin is also a crime, and because severe crimes demand severe punishment,
>sins also demand and require severe punishment, especially, for example,
@@The importance and severe consequences of this assumption about the
"demand" for severe punishment cannot be played with lightly.
>apostasy. Individualist Westerners often view this conflation of sin and
>crime as undemocratic, which means that even if they are Sufis who emrace
@@ I don't see what's either democratic or undemocratic about the equation of
sin and crime (or their conflation, as you express it). What supposed
confusion are you alluding to here?
>The holy Qur'aan, ghey [=they?] may not be Sufis who embrace the Sharia.
Their
>Western orientation does not make it easy from them to see the difference
>between being a servant of God and His Kalaam and being a slave. In
@@so this would be a good place to make clear what that difference is, in
what it consists of, for those of "Western orientation" that do not see this
clearly yet.
>monotheism, when you are a servant, you are a servant *of* and *to* God.
>This quality that is asked of you is one that also asks you to understand
>that obdience requires humility of individualist spirit.
> Humility + Obedience means that we understand that we should not
>put ourselves above our teacher--even when we sense something askew in a
>teacher's request, requirement, lesson, desire.
@@ Is this based on an equation of the will of Allah with the instructions
from a teacher?
> The problem here, of course, lies in being able to discern the
>difference between authentic belief and a cultic practice. This offers
>a challenge to Sufism, which to many seems to lack authentic Orthodoxy. So
>how can we demonstrate that Ibn 'Arabi is as Orthodox as the Prophet (PBUH),
>who understood obdience, humility, and submission well enough never to put
>themselves--nor their soul, nor the soul of their soul--above The Godhead?
@@I think this issue has been touched upon earlier last year (1995), but in
this context, let me ask: Given the weightiness of this form of
Godhead-liness (or Truth, if I can use that word without having my hands and
feet cut off `a la Mansour), the issue on some very practical level becomes
this: how is it that governments run by human beings take it upon themselves
to carry out their interpretation of the way Allah would read a given
situation? and this, with the confidence to be ready to end human life and
intervene in other rather intense ways with the lives of those it sees, as
you put it, as "committing crimes aka sinning"?
>=Mackie Blanton=
CONSIDERING POST 2 of 2 RELATED POSTS:
In a message dated 96-01-02 18:16:43 EST, you write:
>Subj: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth
>Date: 96-01-02 18:16:43 EST
>From: mmoore@antares.Tymnet.COM (Michael J. Moore)
>To: tariqas@europe.std.com
>> I dont have a teacher, but am being tortured by the `Submit' of the Book.
>What do you mean?, Which book? How can a Book torture you?
>> The questions for all of us may be different, but ignoring them makes the
person >> regress spiritually.
>Surely on the path we must ignore all questions and we must regress
>spiritually. Blessed are the poor in spirit..........
@@ I find this difficult to follow. Are the two of you talking about the same
sense of spiritual regress? I had the feeling that there was a big shift
happening here.
>To entertain a question implies that you believe you have an
>answer. We have nothing. Even this statement is wrong.
@@Is this suggesting that it is wrong to entertain questions?
>I suggest you find a teacher and don't listen to my advice.
@@ If the question is about what this entire process is, and what is the best
(most authentic, yearning for the Truth, not "unthinking" [as per above post]
submissiveness, your suggestion reads more like a wish that Johara not have
the question she/he has, than an answer that would aid her/him in resolving
whatever issues or concerns are being expressed in the original post here.
Or am I misreading you?
>> This is my perspective...and I'm looking forward to others writing
>> about all this, so I can find a cleaner one...
>> Johara
>>
>-michael-
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Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 17:32:26 -0800
From: mmoore@antares.Tymnet.COM (Michael J. Moore)
Message-Id: <9601030132.AA00475@kirin.Tymnet.COM>
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: Re: Re Teachers [was Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth]
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>> I dont have a teacher, but am being tortured by the `Submit' of the Book.
> >What do you mean?, Which book? How can a Book torture you?
> >> The questions for all of us may be different, but ignoring them makes the
> person >> regress spiritually.
> >Surely on the path we must ignore all questions and we must regress
> >spiritually. Blessed are the poor in spirit..........
>
> @@ I find this difficult to follow.
Exactly my point!
> Are the two of you talking about the same
> sense of spiritual regress?
I think so, only I am also point out that any feeling of spiritual progress
is also spiritual regress and only true spiritual regress can lead to
spiritual progress.
>I had the feeling that there was a big shift
> happening here.
You are very astute.
>
> >To entertain a question implies that you believe you have an
> >answer. We have nothing. Even this statement is wrong.
>
> @@Is this suggesting that it is wrong to entertain questions?
Wrong towards what end? Will entertaining questions please Allah?
I doubt it. And if it is not for the pleasure of Allah, what
good is it?
Nobody has ever found answers of what lies beyond the illusion by
entertaining questions. Questions themselves only exist within
the illusion and can only result in answers that have meaning
within the illusion. I assume that we are not talking about mundane
questions and answers. By stopping all questions you can find
the truth.
>
> >I suggest you find a teacher and don't listen to my advice.
>
> @@ If the question is about what this entire process is, and what is the best
> (most authentic, yearning for the Truth, not "unthinking" [as per above post]
> submissiveness, your suggestion reads more like a wish that Johara not have
> the question she/he has, than an answer that would aid her/him in resolving
> whatever issues or concerns are being expressed in the original post here.
> Or am I misreading you?
>
You nailed it.
-michael-
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 3 03:52:21 1996
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Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 19:52:21 -0800
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From: olh@hyperback.com (Bob Olhsson)
Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth
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At 12:33 PM 12/31/95, Steve H Rose wrote:
>Assalamu alaikum.
...
>My hypothesis is that some of us, partly from being "Westerners," partly
>from our own psychological states, tend to approach spirituality from the
>point of individual experience -- and to be threatened by truly becoming
>part of a collective entity (afraid of losing our identity or control,
>perhaps). Others of us, partly from being from more traditional
>cultures, partly from our own psychological states, tend to approach
>spirituality from the collective/communcal point of view -- to see our
>growth as intricately related to the growth of others in our group, and
>perhaps to the leadership of a "master" -- and to be threatened by truly
>pursuing our individual experience (afraid of losing our identity as part
>of the group, or the control that comes from the group, perhaps).
We are, in truth, always both individuals and collective societies. The key
is to "grow" our identity to encompass both aspects rather than denying one
or the other. There can be no alternative to Allah's entire truth no matter
how hard we try to define ourselves as being less than that by identifying
with our differences rather than with our commonality.
Bob
Bob Olhsson Audio | O tongue, thou art a
olh@hyperback.com | treasure without end.
P.O. Box 555 | And, O tongue, thou art also a
Novato, CA 94948-0555 | disease without remedy.
415.457.2620 |
415.456.1496 FAX | == Jelal'uddin Rumi ==
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Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 19:52:21 -0800
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From: olh@hyperback.com (Bob Olhsson)
Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth
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At 12:33 PM 12/31/95, Steve H Rose wrote:
>Assalamu alaikum.
...
>My hypothesis is that some of us, partly from being "Westerners," partly
>from our own psychological states, tend to approach spirituality from the
>point of individual experience -- and to be threatened by truly becoming
>part of a collective entity (afraid of losing our identity or control,
>perhaps). Others of us, partly from being from more traditional
>cultures, partly from our own psychological states, tend to approach
>spirituality from the collective/communcal point of view -- to see our
>growth as intricately related to the growth of others in our group, and
>perhaps to the leadership of a "master" -- and to be threatened by truly
>pursuing our individual experience (afraid of losing our identity as part
>of the group, or the control that comes from the group, perhaps).
We are, in truth, always both individuals and collective societies. The key
is to "grow" our identity to encompass both aspects rather than denying one
or the other. There can be no alternative to Allah's entire truth no matter
how hard we try to define ourselves as being less than that by identifying
with our differences rather than with our commonality.
Bob
Bob Olhsson Audio | O tongue, thou art a
olh@hyperback.com | treasure without end.
P.O. Box 555 | And, O tongue, thou art also a
Novato, CA 94948-0555 | disease without remedy.
415.457.2620 |
415.456.1496 FAX | == Jelal'uddin Rumi ==
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 3 03:52:09 1996
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Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 19:52:09 -0800
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
From: olh@hyperback.com (Bob Olhsson)
Subject: Re: posting of writings
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I, for one, would rather see more stories posted from various orders as
fuel for discussion as long as it is clearly titled as such. I do far
better being presented with a passage than I do going looking for one. The
bandwidth and attention involved is trivial compared to the kind of delete
key effort that "feel-good" and "me-too" conversational trivia requires. It
is true that there has been little discussion lately but that is the simple
result of what the rest of us have failed to do!
>On Thu, 28 Dec 1995, Abdkabir wrote:
>
>> I heartily second the motion expressed below by Asha. If people cannot
>> afford the books, then Faoud should once a month say, limit his messages
>> regarding book chapters to merely announcing that such materials are
>> available at their web site. This usual Naqsbandi-Nazim aggressiveness in
>> advertising their "sheik" by dumping bandwidth-eating book chapters onto
>> this group with such tedious regularity ought not to be tolerated by the
>> sponser of this list, unless he has changed his mission statement, which
>> we should be informed about if he has. It seems the more we have been
>> silent about Faoud's data dumping practices, the more he appears
>> emboldened to increase the size and frequency of the dumps...and
>> undoubtedly giving the impression, especially to new subscribers of this
>> group, that its primary purpose is to serve as a free advertisng medium
>> for the writings of Sheik Nazim and extending, with locust-like
>> persistance, the reach of his followers.
>>
Bob Olhsson Audio | O tongue, thou art a
olh@hyperback.com | treasure without end.
P.O. Box 555 | And, O tongue, thou art also a
Novato, CA 94948-0555 | disease without remedy.
415.457.2620 |
415.456.1496 FAX | == Jelal'uddin Rumi ==
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 3 05:18:22 1996
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From: JHulvey@aol.com
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Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 00:18:22 -0500
Message-Id: <960103001741_30312138@mail02.mail.aol.com>
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Cc: JHulvey@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re Teachers [was Re: Indi...
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Ironically, when you tell a person there is no room for a question, you are
providing a answer to a question that they didn't ask (of you).
I feel that a question that is held honestly and openly in the heart may be
better than thinking one knows the answer if one's closure is premature, even
if that answer is about questions, by which presumably is meant all
questions. (Sorry if this sounds like an answer -- it's more of a question
though you may have to take my word on that.)
>From my last notes to the list, one might think I am stuck on the Moses and
Khidr story, and maybe that's so. In that story, though, I don't remember
Khidr telling Moses he couldn't (at least privately)
entertain questions -- just not ask for or demand answers that would
interfere with Khidr's work. To me there is a subtle difference --as usual I
can't articulate it!
I am reminded of John Keats' term "Negative Capability", which he defines as
"when man is capable of being in uncertainties. Mysteries, doubts, without
any irritable reaching after fact and reason."
Perhaps this is what Moses needed a bit more of
Perhaps this irritable reaching is what there is no room for
If a person is without a teacher, then she must ask of herself what
does God require of me? Just how can I submit to God's will?
How can I recognize it? These are questions which she may not be able to
answer in words....but perhaps attention and openness might happen because of
having asked one's self. This seems necessary, at least right now....
Fondly and respectfully,
Julie H.
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 3 05:58:20 1996
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From: MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu
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02 Jan 1996 23:58:20 -0600 (CST)
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 1996 23:58:20 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
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When someone admonishes us for having questions, and then attempts
to out-God God by assuming to know that questions displease God, I then know
that I am in the midst of someone
who does not believe in free will
who believes that God prefers slaves to servants
who will treat others as slaves to his own will (which he
assumes to be the same as God's)
who does not understand that Allah being who Allah is,
Allah's Wisdom, therefore, requires a diversity of
expressions
who assumes that the Prophets Companions already asked all the
questions to be posed
who assumes that Sunnah and Hadith cannot engender in us more
questions so that we may find more answers
who confuses finders with aimless seekers
who would not make a good sheykh.
=Mackie Blanton=
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 3 13:49:38 1996
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Date: 03 Jan 96 08:49:38 EST
From: Sufi Order <75166.1770@compuserve.com>
To: PE
Subject: Re: Fwd: Sufi Order of the West (fwd)
Message-Id: <960103134937_75166.1770_CHR151-4@CompuServe.COM>
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-- [ From: Sufi Order * EMC.Ver #2.03 ] --
> Forwarded message:
> From: paneagle@peoples.net (Wm. Whitney)
> Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com
> Reply-to: tariqas@europe.std.com
> To: tariqas@world.std.com (Tariqas)
> Date: 95-12-30 12:16:20 EST
>
> -- [ From: Wm. Whitney * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --
>
> Would someone be so kind as to forward contact information for the Sufi
> Order of the West?.... both smail and email if possible. Thanks.
>
> PE
Dear PE,
Our mailing address is Sufi Order North American Secretariat, PO Box 30065
Seattle WA 98103. Our E-mail address is 75166,177@Compuserve.com. Phone 1-
206-782-2001
In Europe:
Sufi Order International
C/O Zahir Roehrs
23 rue de la Tulierie
92150 Suresnes
France
Much Light,
Ma'abud
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 3 16:47:03 1996
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From: omegapub@taconic.net
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Date: Wed, 3 Jan 96 08:47:03 PST
Subject: asking questions
To: tariqas@world.std.com
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Perhaps this brief quotation from Rilke's Letters to a Young Poet
will be useful in the discussion about the value of questions:
"...to have patience with everything unresolved in your heart and to
try to love the questions themselves as if they were locked rooms or
books written in a very foreign language. Don't search for the
answers, which could not be given to you now, because you would not
be able to live them. And the point is, to live everything. Live the
questions now. Perhaps then, someday far in the future, you will
gradually, without even noticing it, live your way into the answer."
(Translation by Stephen Mitchell)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Abi'l-Khayr
E-mail: omegapub@taconic.net
Date: 01/03/96 Time: 08:47:03
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 3 16:31:53 1996
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Date: Wed, 3 Jan 96 11:31:53 EST
From: johara@orie.cornell.edu (Johara Shahabuddin)
Message-Id: <9601031631.AA05261@orie.cornell.edu>
To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth
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Hi Michael,
Thanks for your mail. Sorry not interested in the personal. Its
funny and strange of me to mention that bit in my mail, but it
just sort of came as a justification for calling myself individualistic.
By the way, I found your reply quite strange. I think you
are being deliberately dense...but in case you really dont understand
what I said, please say so, and I'll apologize for my interpretation.
>
>
>> I dont have a teacher, but am being tortured by the `Submit' of the Book.
>
>What do you mean?, Which book? How can a Book torture you?
This is just a phrase to say that the Quran bothers me and puts
questions to me. Its a bit hi-fi to say it this way. Sorry about that.
>
>> The questions for all
>> of us may be different, but ignoring them makes the person regress
>> spiritually.
>
>Surely on the path we must ignore all questions and we must regress
>spiritually. Blessed are the poor in spirit..........
>To entertain a question implies that you believe you have an
>answer. We have nothing. Even this statement is wrong.
>
You are right...to entertain a question is to some level a belief
that its answer exists. But I cant get rid of questions and to me
it seems most humans are stuck with them.
>I suggest you find a teacher and don't listen to my advice.
>
Do you have a teacher? Do you listen to your advice ie. do you
have no questions? If you do, what do you do with them?
Much regards,
Johara.
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>From habib@world.std.com Wed Jan 3 14:52:18 1996
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unsubscribe tariqas
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 3 21:41:15 1996
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Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 16:41:15 -0500
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To: tariqas@facteur.std.com
Subject: Questions, and my experience so far
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Dear Johara,
The response to questions by many teachers is not to deny the question. If
fact, for many, to dissuade you from asking questions or even questioning the
teacher would be quite unethical. What is asked is that not that one should
suspend questions but that one might somehow suspend argument. In otherwords,
if you do not agree with the teacher, then, rather than pressing your
argument or even question, just forget what she or he said. (even forget the
Quran if it bothers you - it is not the Quran that is worth learnig it is
what is behind the Quran that is worth anything, just like a teachers words)
That is why when some teachers will, if you begin asking questions about a
certain subject, simpy cease speaking of the subject.
The theory (as I understand it) is, that if you can just keep quiet for a
while and let your own realizations occur that maybe what makes no sense now
will, later on. But that if you have different realizations then maybe you
will teach them and they will be quiet and not ask too many questions.
Realizations come as the fruit in the fall, if you work hard but don't mess
with the crop too much. Nurturance is more valuable than engineering in this
case. Asking questions is like engineering (which isn't all bad) but living
with them is like nurturance and also keeps you on your gaurd which is also
much needed.
And why stay with someone for years and years if you are silent all the
time because nothing they say makes any sense? I guess because you are
attracted to them or something about them. Maybe they wear a nice hat, or you
like the community. It is simple and this simplicity is the most important
thing.
On the other hand the questions are the light of a fire. You don't let them
go, you just remove them a little ways away, at least, temporarily. Perhaps
later the question will go away but the fire remains. The fire of the
question without the question (it is a lovely state) reveals itself to be
yourself most purely and in such beauty. But that is not to say one shouldn't
ask questions, just that it is worth watching the desire behind the question
also. And, it is to say, that if the answer doesn't suit you, don't make a
big deal out of it, in fact, forget it.
Being quiet is not the same as blind faith. The only time a teacher ever
asks you for blind faith is after they have proven their own faith in you so
much that you have complete faith in yourself, which may only come after
years of giving themselves in trust to you, and even then they probably
won't really do it but it is just that you wouldn't mind by then because you
know that it is you who must take care not to break the vulnerable vessel
that is your teacher. That is my experience anyway.
Asha
From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 3 20:21:12 1996
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Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 12:21:12 -0800
From: mateens@sybase.com (Mateen Siddiqui)
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To: tariqas@world.std.com
Subject: fwd: msa: NEWS: Arabs consume uranium food and water (fwd)
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To: msa@htm3.ee.queensu.ca
Subject: msa: NEWS: Arabs consume uranium food and water
Hdate: Saturday 8 SHa`baan 1416 A.H.
Number: msa/30Dec95/20882
Bismillah Walhamdulillah Was Salaatu Was Salaam 'ala Rasulillah
Saturday 30 December 1995, London-UK
From: Parveez Syed
Global Media Monitoring
Shanti Communications
One Stuart Road, Thornton Heath, Surrey CR7 8RA1 UK
Tel: London-UK 44-0831-196693
Fax: 44-0181-665 0384
E-Mail INTERNET: PARVEEZ@CR78RA1UK.WIN-UK.NET
Friendly Gulf assault uranium food and water!
reviewed-edited by Parveez Syed, Shanti GMM
Millions of people in the Middle East are set to consume uranium
infested food and water. For those of us that had friends or
loved ones who were in Iraq - as well as those of us who care
about the people that still have to live in the area - the
following may prove useful.
After the treatment vets got over the Agent Orange claims, we
doubt anybody would believe the military / VA ******* about
denying responsibility for illnesses among Gulf assault vets
anyway. In any event, you might want to save this for future
reference for the alleged Gulf experts you may come in contact
with in the West and elsewhere.
INTERVIEW FROM: (c) NEW DAWN (34) Jan/Feb 1996.
DEPLETED URANIUM: DEAD CHILDREN, SICK SOLDIERS
The UN-authorised, U.S.-led war against Iraq officially ended in
March 1991, or so it seemed. In previous issues of New Dawn we
reported on the genocidal effects of the continuing UN embargo on
the people of Iraq. We also drew attention to the plight of
thousands of Iraqis and allied war veterans who are victims of
radiation poisoning.
The use of Depleted Uranium (DU) armour piercing shells by U.S.
forces in the 1991 Gulf War was uncovered by the German
professor, Dr. Siegwart-Horst Gunther. A survivor of world war
and internment in a Nazi concentration camp, Dr. Gunther is a
tireless campaigner in the struggle to highlight the
little-reported and ongoing human suffering resulting from the
Gulf War. Recently at an international conference David Muller,
President of the South Movement, Australia interviewed Prof.
Siegwart-Horst Gunther, President of Yellow Cross International,
for New Dawn.
DAVID MULLER: Professor, I gather that Depleted Uranium is a
by-product of the nuclear enrichment industry. Is this correct?
PROF. GUNTHER: Uranium ore, as found in nature, is a compound
which consists for the most part, of the isotope 238 and about
0.70% of the isotope 235. Now, as the isotope 235 alone is
fissionable and hence of use for the reactors, the uranium ore,
poor in that element, must be enriched. Such a process involves
masses of material and creates consequently huge quantities of
depleted uranium (composed mostly of the sole isotope 238).
DAVID MULLER: Why did the U.S. use Depleted Uranium shells in the
Gulf War?
PROF. GUNTHER: Depleted Uranium possesses characteristics which
make it very attractive for the weapon technology :
* It is the heaviest element occurring, so to say, naturally
on earth: 1 cm3 weighs 18.95 grams;
* Possibly related to a German technology, because of its
density, uranium tipped projectiles have a very high
penetrating power. DU is best suited for the production of
ammunition to break through steel armours;
* Moreover it is a naturally pyphoric material. After
penetration, so much heat develops at the exit point, that
DU particles catch fire. A hit tank, for instance,
explodes releasing highly toxic and radioactive products;
* After experiences during the Gulf War, since 1992, U.S. tanks
are getting increased strengthening, all around, by DU.
These U.S. tanks are ironically called Radiation Deponents.
DAVID MULLER: Professor you were one of the first people to
expose to the world that the U.S. had used Depleted Uranium in
the Gulf War. How did you make this discovery?
PROF. GUNTHER: I found on the 7th of May, 1991 on the highway
between Baghdad and Amman, in the desert, projectiles in the form
and size of a cigar, which retained my attention, because of
their unusual appearance and weight. In that region, columns of
refugees, aid transports and others had been submitted to attack
by A-10 planes equipped with this type of ammunition.
DAVID MULLER: That's a long way from the tank battles on the
Kuwait border. So you found an unexploded shell fired from a U.S.
Warthog ground attack plane that attacked traffic on the way to
Jordan?
PROF. GUNTHER: Yes. Later on I happened to see children playing
with these projectiles. A little girl who possessed 12 of them
died of leukaemia. Also in the children hospitals of Baghdad,
Mosul and Basrah the number of leukaemia, aplastic anaemia and
tumour development is noticeably on the increase. Moreover a new
up-to-date undiagnosed disease is seen with abnormal abdominal
distension possibly related to disturbed liver and kidney
functions. Because of the impossibility of treatment the children
die, most painfully from secondary infections.
DAVID MULLER: I believe that you took one of the DU shells back
to Germany for analysis ?
PROF. GUNTHER: The possible relation to German technology
prompted me to take one bullet to be analysed by four German
institutions. The bullet under examination exhibited a
radioactivity of 11 to 12 microsivert per hour and was highly
toxic. Because of its danger the projectile was seized by German
police in special protective clothing and transported to a safe
place. In radiology in Germany, personnel should not be exposed
to more than 50 millisivert per year.
DAVID MULLER: What are the short term and long term effects of DU
contamination in Iraq?
PROF. GUNTHER: From my own observations in Iraq, the long term
effect of contact with DU results in the breakdown of the immune
system. Other effects noticed have been:
* Many infectious diseases, with serious complications are on
the increase. Sometimes diseases break out which are known
in Europe only through text books;
* Herpes infections, Zoster infections and AIDS-like symptoms
are dramatically on the increase, all of them possibly
related to the breakdown of the immune system;
* Premature births are numerous. Congenital malformations of
the newborn show a high postwar percentage (26.8% according
to Dept. of Pathology, College of Medicine, University of
Baghdad). In the countryside, children die in great numbers
and are buried without possibility of diagnosis;
* During the lambing season in 1993 a high percentage (10%
according to IPA Agricultural Research Center) of abnormal
newborn lambs have been observed. Most of them died a few
days after birth.
DAVID MULLER: U.S. authorities closed a DU penetrator ammunition
factory on the edge of Albany, in upstate New York because of air
borne contamination levels exceeded 150 microcurie per month
contaminating populated areas up to 26 miles away. This was the
equivalent of 1 or 2 of these 30mm canon shells per month releasing
its toxicity to the environment. We can only guess at the toxicity
levels in Iraq when the Desert Storm 100 hour ground offensive
exploded some 40 tonnes of these DU shells.
PROF. GUNTHER: According to American Greenpeace, documents
released under the Freedom of Information Act, indicate that the
Allied Forces would have left 300 tons of DU on the battle fields
between Kuwait and Iraq, mostly in the form of toxic and
radioactive dust. Much of the uranium dust has been scattered
about thousands of square miles of desert. As the Gulf region has
a rainy season, it is feared that uranium particles get at one
time or the other into the ground water and finally reach the
food chain. Highly toxic uranium dust, if inhaled, can result in
lung cancer. Many DU projectiles spread over the battle fields
have been collected by children and used as toys with possibly
devastating consequences.
The toxic nature of DU contamination is highlighted with the U.S.
Department of Defence erecting a highly secret $4 million
facility in Barnwall, South Carolina just to detoxify 22 military
vehicles hit by friendly fire. Some of the vehicles are so badly
contaminated that they have had to bury them.
DAVID MULLER: The Walter Reed Army Medical Centre in the United
States tested Gulf War veterans suffering from Desert Storm
Syndrome for radiation toxicity following Gulf War veteran
outrage and Congressional pressure.
PROF. GUNTHER: My observations of the effects of DU contamination
in Iraq show a similarity described in the so-called
Gulf-War-Syndrome of U.S. and British soldiers in Kuwait.
Right now one hears about odd ailments among Gulf War veterans
from the U.S., which could possibly be attributed to contact with
DU. One hears about hair loss, skin disease, damage to different
organs etc. Even pregnant women are giving birth to crippled
children. Many of these effects had remained unknown to the
public. Newspapers recorded that a U.S. staff-sergeant held the
view that many soldiers now felt uncertain and fear that they may
have been used as Guinea-Pigs in a radiation experiment.
Laura Flanders recently reported in the Nation magazine on a U.S.
Veterans Administration state-wide survey of 251 Gulf War
veterans families in Mississippi. Of their children conceived
and born since the war, 67% have illnesses related to severe or
missing eyes, missing ears, blood infections, respiratory
problems and fused fingers.
DAVID MULLER: Which companies are still manufacturing DU
weaponry?
PROF. GUNTHER: Different types of DU ammunition have been
manufactured in the U.S. by Honeywell, Aerojet and others, the
mass-production began in 1977. DU penetrators were extensively
used for the first time during late in the Gulf War in 1991, with
impressive results. At present there exists also mass-production
in Britain and France and the export to other NATO countries, as
well as to Japan, Australia and New Zealand are not excluded.
DAVID MULLER: Professor, Australia exports Uranium Yellow cake to
Europe ostensibly for peaceful purposes. From what I understand
from your speech you see collusion between commercial enrichment
plants and the military?
PROF. GUNTHER: Yes, it is a question of cutting costs. Generally
speaking, because of their toxicity and radioactivity, wastes
from the uranium industry are in Europe deposited in salt
galleries. These wastes must be safely deposited for a very long
period of time. Such deposition processes seem to be extremely
expensive. So, to save money, the uranium industry are giving
depleted uranium, free of charge, to institutions or others, who
are interested in it.
DAVID MULLER: One final question! I noticed that you are
circulating a petition about Depleted Uranium. What is the
purpose of your organisation Yellow Cross?
PROF. GUNTHER: Yellow Cross International makes a vehement appeal
for the total ban of using DU ammunition as well as the newly
developed laser weapons provoking irreparable damage to the eyes.
Since 1991 I have been constantly warning about the DU dangers
for the populations. Unfortunately at that time only few people
believed me. Also in Iraq!
* Readers wishing to know more about Prof. Gunther's humanitarian
work may write to: Yellow Cross International, Schlo Lichtenau,
Austria.
EDITORIAL NOTES:
RISE IN CONGENITAL DEFECTS REPORTED AMONG CHILDREN IN IRAQ
IRAQ, BAGHDAD - A recent survey by the Ministry of Health has
registered a noticeable rise in congenital defects and a sharp
rise in mortality rates among children and aged people because of
the sharp shortages of food, medicines, and medical supplies. A
source at the Ministry of Health said the rate of newborn babies
whose weight below 2.5 kilograms has also sharply increased by
4.5 per cent in 1990 to 22 per cent in 1994. The source blamed
the reason on severe malnutrition and the ill health status of
pregnant women.
According to the ministry's research conducted by a team of
experts, scientists and researchers to define the impact of the
war led by the U.S. on the health of Iraqi citizens, there is an
increase in the incidences of cancers such as acute leukaemia
(myloid, lymphatic, undifferentiated etc) and in the incidence of
relapse cases compared to those of 1990 and before.
There is a drastic increase in the cancer cases of children and
youth. Some 10-15 cases are being reported daily after the war
compared to only 2-3 cases prior to that. Anemia cases had
increased due to many factors including malnutrition resulting
from the difficult health situation caused by the effect of war
and UN sanctions. An increase in the incidence rate of congenital
malformation cases such as phacomelia, achodroplasia and
mongolism were reported. Similar increases were reported for the
cases of the other types of congenital malformation, bone
dysplasia, central nervous system disorders and anencephally. All
are attributed to the Gulf War.
ends
Presented by: Shanti GMM. 30 Dec 1995.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Parveez Syed's direct contact details are:
One Stuart Road, Thornton Heath, Surrey CR7 8RA1 UK
Tel: London-UK 44-0831-196693;
Fax/tel: 44-0181-665 0384
E-Mail INTERNET: parveez@cr78ra1uk.win-uk.net
CIS to CIS UserID: 100555,61@compuserve.com
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