Debate of Josh McDowell and Ahmed Deedat: Was Christ Crucified?
   
   

Was Christ crucified?

THE DEBATE 
took place in August, 1981, 
in Durban, South Africa. 

THE PARTICIPANTS 
were Josh McDowell and 
Ahmed Deedat, the 
president of the Islamic 
Propagation Centre in 
Durban, South Africa. 

The debate, a transcript of which 
appears on the following pages, 
was divided into three parts: 

Opening arguments, 50 minutes. 

Rebuttals by each, 10 minutes. 

Closing statements, 3 minutes. 

TRANSCRIPT OF THE DEBATE 

* OPENING ARGUMENTS 

# Ahmed Deedat 

Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen. On the subject of crucifixion,

the Muslim is told in no uncertain terms, in the Holy Qur'an, the 
last and final revelation of God, that they didn't kill Him, nor did

they crucify Him. But it was made to appear to them so. And those who

dispute therein, are full of doubts. They have no certain knowledge;

they only follow conjecture, guesswork. For of a surety, they killed

Him not. 

Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen. Could anyone have been more 
explicit, more dogmatic, more uncompromising, in stating a belief 
than this? The only one who was entitled to say such words is the 
all-knowing, omniscient Lord of the universe. 

The Muslim believes this authoritative statement as the veritable 
Word of God. And as such, he asks no questions, and he demands no 
proof. He says, "There are the words of my Lord; I believe, and
I 
affirm." But the Christian responds in the words of our honorable

guest. In his book, Josh McDowell with Don Stewart in "Answers
to 
tough Questions" on pages 116 and 117, states the Christian's
atti- 
tude toward this uncompromising statement of the Muslim. He says, 
"A major problem with accepting Mohammed's account is that his
testi- 
mony is 600 years after the event occurred, while the New Testament

contains eyewitness, or first hand, testimony of the life and mini-

stry of Jesus Christ." 

In a nutshell, the Christian asks how can a man a thousand miles 
away from the scene of the happening of the crucifixion and 600 years

in time away from the happening know what happened in Jerusalem? The

Muslim responds that these are the words of God Almighty. And there-

fore, as such, God knew what had happened. The Christian naturally

reasons that, had he accepted this book, the Qur'an, as the Word of

God, there would have been no dispute between us. We would all have

been Muslims! 

We have eyewitness and earwitness accounts of these happenings 
which are stated for us in the Holy Bible, more especially in the 
gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Now, the implication of this

crucifixion is this: it is alleged that Jesus Christ was murdered by

the Jews by means of crucifixion 2,000 years ago, And as such, the

Jews are guilty of the murder of Jesus Christ. We Muslims are told

that they are innocent because Christ was not killed, nor was He 
crucified, And as such, I am given the [mandate] by the Holy Qur'an

to defend the Jews against the Christian charge. I'm going to defend

the Jews this afternoon, not because they are my cousins, but simply

because justice must he done. 
We have our points of difference with the Jews - that is a different

question altogether. This afternoon, I will try my very best to do

justice to my cousins, the Jews. 

Now, in this argument, this debate, this dialogue, I am actually 
the defense counsel for the Jews, and Josh McDowell is the prosecu-

ting counsel. And you, ladies and gentlemen, are the ladies and gent-

lemen of the jury. I want you to sit back, relax and at the end of

this, give judgment to yourself, to your own conscience whether the

Jews are guilty or not of the charge as alleged by the Christians.

Now, to get to the point, as the defense counsel for the Jews, 
I could have had this case against the Jews dismissed in just two 
minutes - in any court of law, in any civilized country in the world,

simply by demanding from the prosecuting counsel the testimonies of

these witnesses, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, And when they are pre-

sented, in the form of sworn affidavits, as we have them in the 
gospels, I could say that, in their original, they are not attested.

And the proof - you get any authorized King James Version of the 
Bible, and you'll find each and every affidavit begins: "The Gospel

according to St. Matthew, the Gospel according to St. Mark, the Gospel

according to St. Luke, the Gospel according to St. John." I'm
asking, 
ladies and gentlemen of the jury, what is this "according ...
accor- 
ding ... according"? Do you know what it means? It means Matthew,

Mark, Luke and John didn't sign their names. It is only assumed that

these are their work. And as such, in any court of law, in any civi-

lized country, they would be thrown out of court in just two minutes.

Not only that, I can have this case dismissed TWICE in two minutes

in any court of law in any civilized country. I said twice because

one of the testators in the Gospel of St. Mark, chapter 14, verse 50,

tells us that at the most critical juncture in the life of Jesus, all

His disciples forsook Him, and fled. ALL. If they were not there, the

testimony of those who were not there to witness what happened will

be thrown out of court. I said, twice in two minutes, in just 120 
seconds flat, the case would be over. In any court of law. in any 
civilized country in the world. 

But where is the fun of it? You have come a long way from far and 
wide, after all the threatening rains. And now, if we say the case
is 
closed and go home, where is the fun of it? To entertain you, I will

accept those documents as valid, for the sake of this dialogue, and

we are now going to put these witnesses into the box for cross- 
examination. And I want you to see where the truth lies. 

The first witness that I'm going to call, happens to be St. Luke. 
And St. Luke has been described by Christian authorities as one of

the greatest historians. As a historical book, the Gospel of St. Luke

is unique. Now, we get St. Luke. chapter 24. verse 36. I'm going to

tell you what he has said - what he has written in black and white.

He tells us that it was Sunday evening, the first day of the week,

when Jesus Christ walked into that upper room, the one in which He

had the Last Supper with His disciples. This is three days after His

alleged crucifixion. He goes in, and He wishes His disciples, "Peace

be unto you." And when He said, "Peace be unto you,"
His disciples 
were terrified. Is that true? We're asking you. I would like to ask

Him, why were the disciples terrified? Because when one meets his 
long-lost master, his grandfather, his guru, his Rabbi - we Eastern

people embrace one another; we kiss one another. Why should His 
disciples be terrified? So Luke tells us they were frightened, be-

cause they thought He was a spirit. 

I'm only quoting what he said. And you can verify in your own 
Bible at home. They were frightened, they were terrified because they

thought He was a spirit. I'm asking Luke, did He look like a spirit?

And he says no. I'm asking all the Christians of the world again and

again, of every church and denomination, this master of yours, did
He 
look like a spirit? And they all say no. Then I say, why should they

think that man is a spirit when He didn't look like one? 

And everyone is puzzled - unless Josh can explain. Every Christian

is puzzled. Why should they think the man is a spirit when He didn't

look like one? I will tell you. The reason is because the disciples

of Jesus had heard from hearsay that the Master was hanged on the 
cross. They had heard, from hearsay, that He had given up the ghost.

In other words. His spirit had come out: He had died. They had heard

from hearsay that He was dead and buried for three days. All their

knowledge was from hearsay, because as I said at the beginning (Mark,

chapter 14, verse 50), your other witness says that at the most criti-

cal juncture in the life of Jesus all His disciples forsook Him and

fled. All! They were not there. 

So, all the knowledge being from hearsay, you come across a per- 
son who you heard was dead for three days. You assume that He's 
stinking in His grave. When you see such a person. naturally, you're

terrified. So Jesus wants to assure them that He's not what they're

thinking. They are thinking that He has come back from the dead. A

resurrected, spiritualized body, so He says - I am only quoting what

Luke says - He says, "Behold My hands and My feet." Have
a look at 
My hands and My feet, that it is I, Myself. I am the same fellow, 
man, what's wrong with you? Why are you afraid? He says, "Handle
Me 
and see. Handle Me and see. For a spirit has no flesh and bones, as

you see me have." 

A spirit: indefinite article "a." A spirit, any spirit, has
no 
flesh and bones, as you see me have. So, if I have flesh and bones,

I'm not a spirit: I'm not a ghost: I'm not a spook. I am asking the

English man - the one who speaks English as his mother tongue - since

I have flesh and bones. I'm not a spirit: I'm not a ghost: I'm not
a 
spook. I say. is that what it means in your language? 

I say, you Afrikaner, when a man tells you that, does it mean that

he's not what you are thinking? That is, he is not a spirit, he is

not a ghost, he is not a spook. And everybody responds "yes."
If a 
man tells you a spirit has no flesh and bones, it means it has no 
flesh and bones. As you see, I have these things, so I'm not what 
you're thinking. You are thinking that I was dead, and I have come

back from the dead and am resurrected. If a spirit has no flesh and

bones, in other words, he's telling you that the body you are seeing

is not a metamorphosed body. It is not a translated body; it is not

a resurrected body. Because a resurrected body gets spiritualized.

Who says so? My authority is Jesus. You say, "Where?" I say
Luke, 
you look again - chapter 20 in verse 36. What does he say? You see,

the Jews were always coming to Him with riddles; they were always 
asking Him, "Master, shall we pay tribute to Caesar or not? Master,

this woman, we found her in the act. What shall we do to her? Master

..." Again and again. Now, they come to Him and they ask Him,
it 
says. "Master," Rabbi in the Hebrew language, "Master,
we had a woman 
among us, and this woman according to a Jewish custom, had seven hus-

bands." You see, according to a Jewish custom, if a brother of
a man 
dies and leaves no offspring. then the man takes his brother's wife

to be his own wife. And when he fails the third brother does likewise,

and the fourth and the fifth and the sixth, and the seventh. 

Seven brothers had this woman as a wife. but there was no problem 
while on this earth because it was all one by one. Now, they want to

know from Him that at the resurrection, in the hereafter, which one

is going to have her, because they all had her here. In other words,

there will be a war in heaven, because we believe that we will all
be 
resurrected simultaneously. All together. at one time. And these 
seven brothers wake up at the same time. and they see this woman and

every one would say, "My wife! My wife!" and there would
be a war in 
heaven between the brothers for this one woman. 

So they want to know from Him which one is going to have her on the

other side. Luke. chapter 20, verse 36. Check it out. In answer to

that. Jesus said about these resurrected men and women, "Neither

shall they die anymore." In other words, "Once they are resurrected,

they will be immortalized." This is a mortal body. It needs food,

shelter, clothing, sex, rest. Without these things mankind perishes.

That body will be an immortalized body. An immortal body, no food,

no shelter, no clothing, no sex, no rest. He says neither shall they

die anymore. For they are equal unto the angels. 

In other words, they will be angel-ized. They will be spiritualized;

they will be spiritual creatures; they will be spirits! For they are

equal unto angels and the children of God. Such are the children of

the resurrection - spirit! He said "A spirit has no flesh and
bones, 
as you see Me have." In other words, "I'm not resurrected."
And they 
believed not for joy and wonders - Luke 24 again. What happened then?

We thought the man was already dead, perhaps stinking in His grave.

And they believed not for joy - overjoy - and they wonder what hap-

pened? So He says, "Have you any broiled fish and a honeycomb
here, 
meat - something to eat?" And they gave Him a piece of bread and
He 
took it and ate it in their very sight. To prove what? I'm asking 
ladies and gentlemen of the jury, what was He trying to demonstrate?

What? "I am the same fellow, man; I am not what you are thinking,
I 
have not come back from the dead." 

This was Sunday evening after the alleged crucifixion. 

Let's go back. What happened in the morning? Your other witness, 
John, chapter 20, verse 1, tells us that it was Sunday morning, the

first day of the week, when Mary Magdalene went to the tomb of Jesus.

I'm asking John, why did she go there? Or, let's put another of your

witnesses on the stand, Mark, chapter 16, verse 1. Mark, tell us -

why did Mary go there? And Mark tells us, "She went to anoint
Him." 
Now, the Hebrew word for anoint is 'massahah' from which we get the

word messiah in Hebrew and masih in Arabic. The root word for both

Arabic and Hebrew is the same. Massahah means to rub, to massage, to

anoint. 

I'm asking, do Jews massage dead bodies after three days? And the 
answer is no. I say to you Christians, do you massage dead bodies af-

ter three days? Do you? The answer is no. We Muslims are the closest

to the Jew in our ceremony of law. Do Muslims massage dead bodies af-

ter three days? The answer is no. Then why would they want to go and

massage a dead, rotten body after three days? Within three hours, 
you know that rigor mortis sets in, the hardening of the cells, the

rotting of the body, fermentation from within. In three days' time

the body is rotten from inside. Such a rotting body when you massage

it falls to pieces. 

Why would she want to go and massage a dead, rotten body unless 
she was looking for a live person? You see, according to your 
witnesses, from only reading, she must have seen signs of life in the

limp body as it was being taken down from the cross. She was about

the only woman who, with Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus, had given

the final rites to the body of Jesus. All his other disciples had 
forsaken Him and fled. They were not there. So if this woman had seen

signs of life, she was not going to shout, "There, He's alive!
He's 
alive!" - to invite a sure death. 

Three days later, she goes in, and she wants to anoint Him. And 
when she reaches the sepulchre, she finds that the stone is removed.

The winding sheets are inside. So, she starts to cry. I'm asking, why

was the stone removed and why were the winding sheets unwound? Be-

cause for a resurrected body you won't have to remove the stone to

come out. For the resurrected body, you don't have to unwind the win-

ding sheets to move, This is the need of this physical body. This 
mortal body. Because a poet tells us, "The stone walls do not
a pri- 
son make nor iron bars a cage," For the soul, for the spirit,
these 
things do not matter. Iron bars or walls. It's the need of His phy-

sical body. Jesus Christ, according to the Scriptures, was watching

her from wherever He was, not from heaven, but from this earth. 

Because this tomb, if you remember, was privately owned property 
belonging to Joseph of Arimathea. This very rich, influential dis-

ciple had carved out of a rock a big, roomy chamber. Around that 
chamber was his vegetable garden. Now, don't tell me that this Jew

was so generous that he was planting vegetables five miles out of 
town for other people's sheep and goats to graze upon. 

Surely he must have bought his laborers quarters. Or for people who

looked after his garden, or perhaps his country home where he went

with his family for holidays, on the weekends. 

Jesus is there and He watches this woman. He knows who she is and He

knows why she's there. And He goes up to her. He finds her crying.
So 
He says, "Woman, why weepest thou? Whom seekest thou?" I'm
asking, 
doesn't He know? Doesn't He know? Why does He ask such a silly 
question? I'm telling you, this is not a silly question. He's actu-

ally pulling her leg, metaphorically. She, supposing Him to be the

gardener - I'm only reading you evidence as it is given. She supposed

Him to be the gardener - I am asking, why does she suppose He's a gar-

dener? Do resurrected bodies look like gardeners? Do they? I say, why

does she suppose He's a gardener? I'm telling you, because He's dis-

guised as a gardener. Why is He disguised as a gardener? I say, be-

cause He's afraid of the Jews. Why is He afraid of the Jews? I say,

because He didn't die. And He didn't conquer death. If He had died,

and if He had conquered death, there's no need to be afraid anymore.

Why not? Because the resurrected body can't die twice. Who says so?
I 
say the Bible. What does it say? It says it is ordained unto all men,

once to die, and after that, the judgment. You can't die twice. 

So, if He had conquered death, there would be no need to be afraid.

He's afraid, because He didn't die, So she, supposing Him to be the

gardener, says, "Sir, if you have taken Him hence, tell me where
have 
you laid Him to rest?" To relax, to recuperate, not where have
you 
buried Him. "So that I might take him away." I alone .- one
woman a 
frail Jewess. Imagine her carrying away a corpse of 160 pounds, at

least, not 200 like me. A muscular carpenter supposed to be a young

man in the prime of His life, at least 160 pounds. And another 100

pounds' worth of medicines around Him, John, chapter 19, verse 9. 
That makes Him 260. 

Can you imagine this frail Jewess carrying this bundle of a corpse

over 260 pounds, like a bundle of straw, like a super-woman in the

American comics? And take Him where? Take Him home? Put Him under a

bed - what does she want to do with Him? Does she want to pickle 
Him? What does she want to do with a rotting body. I ask you? 

So Jesus - the joke has gone too far - says, "Mary..." The
way He 
said "Mary," she recognized that this was Jesus. So, she
wants to 
grab Him. I'm asking why. To bite Him? No! To pay respect. We Eastern

people do that. She wants to grab Him. So Jesus says, "Touch Me
not," 
I say, why not? Is He a bundle of electricity, a dynamo, that if she

touches Him she will get electrocuted? Tell me, why not? I say be-

cause it hurts, You give me another reason why not, "Touch Me
not for 
I am not yet ascended unto My Father." Is she blind? Can't she
see 
the man is standing there beside her? What does He mean by "I'm
not 
gone up" when He is here? He said, "I am not yet ascended
unto My 
Father." In the language of the Jew, in the idiom of the Jew.
He's 
saying, "I am not dead yet." 

The problem arises: who moved the stone? How could she get to Him;

who moved the stone? And the Christians are writing books upon books.

One is Frank Morrison, a rationalist lawyer, He writes a book of 192

pages and he gives six hypotheses, At the end of the 192 pages, when

you are finished, you still haven't got the answer. Who moved the 
stone? And they're writing books upon books: who moved the stone? I

can't understand why you can't see the very obvious. Why don't you

read your books: These gospels, you have it in black and white in 
your own mother tongue. This is an anomaly that you read this book

in your own mother tongue. 

The Englishman in English, the Afrikaner in Afrikaans the Zulu in 
Zulu. Every language group has got the book in their own language.

And each and every one is made to understand the exact opposite of

what he is reading. Exact opposite. Not just merely misunderstanding.

I want you to prove me wrong. I'm telling you ... I'm only quoting

word for word exactly as your witnesses have said it. Preserved it

for us in black and white. I'm not attributing motives to them. I'm

not saying that they are dishonest witnesses. I'm telling you. Please

read this book of yours once more. Remove the blinders, and read it

again. And tell me where I'm not understanding your language. You 
Englishmen, or you Afrikaners, you Zulu. You come back to me and if

you feel that at the end of the talk. our honored visitor has not 
done justice to the subject, you call me - to your Kingdom Halls or

to your school hall or anywhere you want to discuss it further with

me. I am prepared to come. 

Who moved the stone? I'm asking. It's very simple - they're talking

about 20 men required. It is so huge, it needed a superman from Ame-

rica to move it. One and a half to two tons. I'm telling you, please

read Mark and Matthew and he tells you that Joseph of Arimathea alone,

put the stone into place. One man - alone. One man! If one man can
put 
it into place, why can't two persons remove it, I ask you? 

Now, all those happenings - you know that this was prophesied. It 
was ordained. And all the stories about what happened afterward - 
I'm telling you that Jesus Christ had given you a clear cut indication

of what was going to happen. And that's also preserved in black and

white in your testimony in the Gospel of St. Matthew, another of your

witnesses, chapter 12. verses 38. 39 and 40. The Jews come again to

Jesus. with a new request. 

Now they say. "Master, we would have a sign of Thee." We
want You 
to show a miracle to convince us that You are the Messiah we are 
waiting for. You know, something supernatural like walking on the 
water, or flying in the air like a bird. Do something, man, then we

will be convinced that You are a man of God, the Messiah we are wait-

ing for. 

So Jesus answers them. He says, "An evil and adulterous generation

seeketh after a sign. But there shall be no sign given unto it, except

the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three

nights in the belly of the whale, so shall the Son of Man be three

days and three nights in the belly of the earth." The only sign
He 
was prepared to give them was the sign of Jonah. He has put all his

eggs in one basket. He didn't say, "You know blind Bartimaeus,
I 
healed him. You know that woman with issues who had been bleeding for

years. She touched Me and she was healed. You know, I fed five thou-

sand people with a few pieces of fish and a few pieces of bread. You

see that fig tree. I dried it up from its very roots." Nothing
of the 
kind. "This is the only sign I will give you, the sign of Jonah."
I'm 
asking, what was that sign? 

Well, go to the book of Jonah. I brought the book of Jonah for you
- 
one page by God - it is only one page in the whole Bible. This is the

book of Jonah. Four short chapters. It won't take you two minutes to

read it. It's hard to find the book because, in a thousand pages, to

find one page is difficult. But, you don't have to go there. If you

went to Sunday school. you will remember what I'm telling you. I'm

telling you that Jonah was sent to the Ninevites. You know, God 
Almighty told him, "Go to Nineveh," a city of 100,000 people.
He was 
to warn them that they must repent in sack-cloth and ashes; they must

humble themselves before the Lord. Jonah was despondent because these

materialistic people -worldly people - "They will not listen to
me. 
They will make a mockery of what I have to tell them." So instead
of 
going to Nineveh, he goes to Joppa. That's what this one-page book

tells you. He went to Joppa and was taken aboard a ship - he was going

to Tarshish. You don't have to remember the names. 

On the way, there's a storm. And according to the superstitions of

these people, anyone who runs away from his master's command, who 
fails to do his duty, creates a turmoil at sea. So, they begin to 
question in the boat, who could be responsible for this storm. Jonah

realizes that as a prophet of God, he is a soldier of God. And as a

soldier of God, he has no right to do things presumptuously on his

own. So he says, "Look, I am the guilty party. God Almighty is
after 
my blood. He wants to kill me, so in the process He's sinking the 
boat, and you innocent people will die. It will be better for you if

you take me and you throw me overboard. Because God is really after

my blood." 

They say, "No, man, you know, you are such a good man. Perhaps
you 
want to commit suicide. We won't help you to do that. We have a sys-

tem of our own of discovering right from wrong," and that is what

they call casting lots. Like heads or tails. So, according to the sys-

tem of casting lots, Jonah was found to be the guilty man. And so they

took him, and they threw him overboard. 

Now I'm going to ask you a question. When they threw him overboard.

was he dead or was he alive? Now, before you answer. I want you to

bear in mind that Jonah had volunteered. He said, "Throw me."
And 
when a man volunteers, you don't have to strangle him before throwing,

you don't have to spear him before throwing, you don't have to break

his arm or limb before throwing. You agree with me? 

The man had volunteered. So when they threw him overboard, what 
does your common sense say? Was he dead or was he alive? Please, I

want your help. Was he dead or was he alive? Alive. You get no prize

for that - it was too simple a question. And - astonishingly the Jews

say that he was alive, the Christians say he was alive and the Mus-

lims say he was alive. How much nicer it would be if we would agree

on every other thing. 

We all agree that he was alive when he was thrown into that raging

sea. And the storm subsided. Perhaps it was a coincidence. A fish 
comes and gobbles him. Dead or alive? Was he dead or was he alive?

Alive? Thank you very much. 

From the fish's belly, according to the book of Jonah, he cries to

God for help. Do dead men pray? Do they pray? Dead people, do they

pray? No! So he was alive. Three days and three nights the fish takes

him around the ocean. Dead or alive? Alive. On the third day, walking

on the seashore, I'm asking - dead or alive? Alive. What does Jesus

say? He said, "For as Jonah was." Just like Jonah. "For
as Jonah was, 
so shall the Son of Man be," referring to Himself. How was Jonah
- 
dead or alive? Alive. How was Jesus for three days and three nights

in the tomb according to the Christian belief? How was He? Dead or

alive? Dead. 

He was dead according to our belief. In other words, He's unlike 
Jonah. Can't you see? He says, I shall be like Jonah and you are tell-

ing me - there's one thousand two hundred million Christians of the

world - that He was unlike Jonah. He said, I will be like Jonah, you

say He was unlike Jonah. If I was a Jew, I would not accept Him as
my 
Messiah. I am told in the Qur'an that Jesus was the Messiah. I accept.

He was one of the mightiest messengers of God - I accept. I believe

in His miraculous birth. I believe that He gave life to the dead by

God's permission. And He healed those born blind and the leper by 
God's permission. But if I was a Jew, according to the sign that He

has given, He failed. Jonah is alive - Jesus is dead. They are not

alike. I don't know in what language you can make them alike - that

they are like one another. So the clever man. you know, the doctor
of 
theology, the professor of religion, he tells me that I don't under-

stand the Bible. 

Your Bible, I don't understand. Why don't I understand the Bible? He

says, "You see Mr. Deedat, Jesus Christ is emphasizing the time
fac- 
tor." Note, He uses the word "three" four times. For
Jonah was three 
days and three nights. so shall the Son of Man be three days and three

nights. He uses the word "three" four times. 

In other words, He's emphasizing the time factor - not whether He 
was dead or alive. I'm tellinq you that there is nothing miraculous

in a time factor, Whether the man was dead for three minutes or three

hours or three weeks, that's not a miracle. 

The miracle, if there is one at all, is that you expect a man to be

dead and he's not dead. When Jonah was thrown into the sea, we expect

him to die. He didn't die, so it's a miracle. A fish comes and gobbles

him - he ought to die. He didn't die, so it's a miracle. Three days

and three nights of suffocation and heat in the whale's belly, He 
ought to die: he didn't die. It's a miracle, it's a miracle because

you expect a man to die and he didn't die. 

When you expect a man to die, and if he dies, what's so miraculous

about that? I ask you, what's miraculous about that? If a gunman took

a gun and fired six shots into the heart of a man and he dies, is that

a miracle? No. But if he laughs it off. if he is still alive and walk-

ing with us and if, after the six shots tear his heart to pieces, he

laughs: ha ha ha ha --- he's alive. So we say it's a miracle. Can't

you see? The miracle is when we expect a man to die and he doesn't

die. When the man who is expected to die, dies, it's no miracle. 

We expect Jesus also to die. For what He had been through, if He 
died, there is no miracle. There's no sign. If He didn't die, it's
a 
miracle - can't you see? So He says, "No, no. It is the time factor."

Drowning men clutch at straws - drowning women do the same. He says,

"No. it's the time factor." I say, did He fulfill that? He
says, "Of 
course, He fulfilled that." I say, how did He fulfill it? Look,
it's 
very easy to make statements. HOW did He fulfill it? I say, watch.

When was He crucified, I ask you? The whole Christian world says on

Good Friday. Britain, France, Germany. America, 
Lesotho. Zambia - in South Africa we have a public holiday - every

Christian nation commemorates Good Friday. I am asking, what makes

Good Friday good? 

So the Christian says, "Christ died for our sins, That makes it

good." So He was crucified on the Good Friday. He says, yes. Yes.
I 
say, when was He crucified - morning or afternoon? So the Christian

says in the afternoon. How long was He on the cross? Some say three

hours, some say six hours. I say, I am not going to argue with you.

Whatever you say, I accept. You know, when we read the Scriptures,

they tell us that when they wanted to crucify Jesus, they were in a

hurry. And they were in such a hurry that Josh tells us in his book,

The Resurrection Factor, that within some 12 hours, there were six

separate trials. Six trials He went through. 

These things only happen in films. These sort of things - six trials

in 12 hours from midnight to the next morning and on, only take place

on films. But I believe whatever you tell me. Whatever you tell me,
I 
accept. So the Jews were in a hurry to put Him up on the cross. Do
you 
know why? Because of the general public. Jesus was a Jew. The general

public loved Him. The man had healed the blind and the lepers and the

sick and had raised the dead. He had fed so many thousands of people

with bread and fish. He was a hero, and if they discovered - the ge-

neral public - that their hero's life was in danger, there would have

been a riot. 

So, they had a midnight trial. Early in the morning they took Him to

Pilate. Pilate says, "He is not my kettle of fish - take Him to
Herod." 
Herod says, "I'm not interested - take Him back to Pilate. And
hurry, 
hurry, hurry." And they held six trials within 12 hours. Six.
As if 
they had nothing else to do, but I believe what you tell me. 

They succeeded in putting Him up on the cross, according to your 
witnesses. According to your witnesses. But as much as they were in
a 
hurry to put Him up, they were in a hurry to bring Him down. You know

why? Because at sunset on Friday, at six o'clock, the Sabbath starts.

You see, the Jews count the days, night and day, night and day. We

Muslims count our days, night and day, night and day. Not day and night.

We count night and day. Six o'clock, our day begins in the evening.

So, before sunset, the body must come down because they were told in

the book of Deuteronomy that they must see to it that nobody is hanging

on the tree on the Sabbath day. "That thy land be not defiled
which the 
Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance." So quickly, quickly,
they 
brought the body down and they gave Him a burial bath, and they put
a 
hundred pounds of medicine around Him. And they put Him into the 
sepulchre. Not a grave - a sepulchre. A big, roomy chamber above ground.

So it's already evening. From three o'clock in the afternoon, for 
whatever you do, the details are given in Josh's book. Burial baths

normally take more than an hour. You read the details about how the
Jew 
give a burial bath to the dead. That takes more than an hour itself.
But 
let's say they succeeded in doing all these things in a hurry, hurry.
You 
know they were in a hurry. Six trials in 12 hours. Now they put Him
into 
the sepulchre. 

By the time they put Him in, it's already evening. So watch - watch

my fingers. Friday night He's supposed to be in the grave. Watch my

finger. Saturday day, He still is supposed to be in the grave. Am I

right? Saturday night, He still is supposed to be in the grave. But

Sunday morning, the first day of the week, when Mary Magdalene goes
to 
the tomb, the tomb was empty. 

That's what your witnesses say. I am asking - how many days and how

many nights? You remember, I said, supposed, supposed, supposed...

You know why? Because the Bible doesn't say actually when He came out.

He could have come out Friday night. The Bible doesn't say how He came.

So, Friday night, Saturday day, Saturday night. I'm asking, how many

days and how many nights? Please, if you can see, if your eyes are
not 
defective, tell me how many? How many do you see? Right! Two nights
and 
a day. Look at this. Is it the same as He said, for as Jonah was three

days and three nights, so shall the Son of Man be three days and three

nights? Three and three. Look at this: two and one. Please tell me
now 
it means the same thing. 

I want to know what you are reading. I want to know what you are 
reading in your own book! The man is telling you that what is going
to 
happen will be like Jonah. And the sign of Jonah is a miracle. And
the 
only miracle you can attribute to this man, Jonah, is that we expected

him to die and he didn't die. Jesus - we expect Him also to die. If
He 
died, it is not a sign. If He didn't die, it is a sign. 

Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen of the jury. Can you see, the 
people have been programmed. We all get programmed from childhood.
When 
I went to America, and spoke at the University in San Francisco, I

said you people are brainwashed. I told them, "You are brainwashed."
Of 
course, I could afford to talk to them - the American will take it.
He 
is the almighty. You know, great guy. He can take it. So I said, "You

people are brainwashed." So one American, a professor, interjected,

"No, not brainwashed - programmed." I said, "I beg your
pardon - pro- 
grammed." So, Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, I hope, by the
time 
this meeting is over, you will be re-programmed into reading the book

as it is, and not as you are made to understand. 

Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen. 

# Josh McDowell 

Ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon. Mr. Deedat, and the wonderful

people of this city, and this country of South Africa, I am thankful

for the opportunity to be a part of this symposium on Islam and Christi-

anity's view of the crucifixion and the resurrection. 

In preparation for this, I didn't realize that I would be dealing 
with so many different theories on the crucifixion from the Islamic

viewpoint. I found out, first of all, that the majority of the Muslims

throughout the world hold to the substitutionary theory. That in Surah

number 4, in the Qur'an, a substitute, another person, was placed in

Christ's position on the cross that Jesus was removed and taken to

heaven. 

In other words, it was someone else. But then, I found such a diverse

opinion among Muslims. Some Muslim writers say that it was a disciple

of Jesus who was placed on the cross in His stead. Another Muslim wri-

ter, Tabari, quoting Ibn Ishaq, said it was a man by the name of Sargus,

or Sergius, who was placed on the cross. Another Muslim writer by the

name of Baidawi, said it was a Jew named Titanus who was placed on
the 
cross. Another, Ath-Tha-'labi, says it was a Jew named Fal Tayanus,
who 
was placed on the cross. And still another Muslim writer. Wahb ibn

Munabbah, said it was a Rabbi of the Jews, Ashyu, who was placed on
the 
cross. 

Then, others feeling that it might be a little unfair to put an inno-

cent man there, say, well, it must be Judas Iscariot who was placed
on 
the cross. Now, Mr. Deedat might be able to correct me, but I do not

believe there is any evidence whatsoever in the Qur'an for that. There

are in some of the sects. earlier than Islam, references to that. But
I 
always wondered, why did God have to have a substitute? Why couldn't
He 
have simply taken Jesus then? 

Others will say - and this is not what the majority of Muslims believe

- that Jesus died a natural death some years after the crucifixion
and 
the alleged resurrection. In other words, "Hazrat Isa," Jesus
is dead! 
This is a more recent development in Islam. And I'm always wary of

recent developments. 

It was started mainly by a man by the name of Venturini, who said 
Jesus really didn't die on the cross - He just swooned or passed out,

then was put into a tomb and resuscitated. This is also the theme of

the Ahmadiyas, a radical sect of Islam. One of their main doctrines,

established by their founder and allegedly their prophet, Mirza Ghulam

Ahmad, it is a part of the doctrine of Qadianism. 

Some will say to be crucified means to die. Therefore, Jesus wasn't

crucified because He did not die on the cross. I'm not quite sure how

they got that definition. What I need to do is this: present the facts

to you, as I have been able to document them in my books, and then
let 
you, as fair minded, intelligent people, make up your minds. The back-

ground for the points I'm going to make is that when I was in the Uni-

versity, I wanted to write a book against Christianity. I wanted to

refute it intellectually. The last thing I wanted to do was become
a 
Christian. But after two years of research and spending a lot of money

and time, I discovered facts - not only facts that God has stated in

His Holy Word, the Bible, but facts that are documented in sources
in 
history. Men and women, these are some of the facts that I found as
I 
tried to refute Christianity and I couldn't. 

The first fact I found is that Jesus was not afraid to die. In fact,

He predicted His own death and resurrection. He said, "Behold,
we are 
going up to Jerusalem." He said to His disciples, "The Son
of Man is 
going to be delivered up to the death. And they will deliver Him to
the 
Gentiles to mock and to whip and to crucify Him. And on the third day
He 
will be raised up" (paraphrased from Matthew 17:22-23). 

In another place He began to teach them that He had discovered many

things. And then He said He'd be rejected by the elders and the chief

priests and the scribes, He would be killed, and He added that after

three days, He was to rise again (Matthew 20:18, 19). 

In Matthew 17, Jesus said to them, "The Son of Man is going to
be 
delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill Him, and He will
be 
raised again on the third day." 

The second thing I learned as I studied the life of Jesus Christ is

that Jesus was willing to die. In Matthew 26, He said, "My Father,
if it 
is possible, let this Cup pass from Me." But what a lot of people
leave 
out is the context of what Jesus said. He said, "Yet not as I
will, but 
as Thou wilt, Father" (Matthew 26:39). 

Now Jesus did not hide Himself. He is very clear about where He is.
It 
says in John 18 that He went to the place where they usually found
Him. 
He didn't want to hide from the authorities. He knew what was going
to 
happen. In John 18, verse 4, it says, "Jesus therefore. knowing
all the 
things that were going to come upon Him." He knew it! And He was
ready 
for it. In Matthew Jesus says, "Don't you understand, I could
call on twelve 
legions of angels to protect Me?" But He said, "I want Your
will. Father." 
and God answered His prayer and let Him fulfill "the will of the
Father." 
Jesus said in John 10: "The Father loves Me because I lay down
My life 
that I may take it up again. No one has taken it away from Me, but
I 
lay it down on My own initiative." You have to remember - Jesus
being 
the God-Man, came as God the Son, the eternal Word, to take the sins

of the world upon Himself. The Holy Bible (I Corinthians 5:21) says
that 
He, God, made Jesus sin for us, and, if you can, imagine the agony
that 
the eternal Word, the Son, was going through at that time. 

The third fact that I learned is that the Jews were not guilty of the

crucifixion of Jesus Christ. I was very surprised. Mr. Deedat, that
you 
needed to be the defender of the Jews. There are Muslims and Christians

that have gotten that distorted all through history. Jesus said in
Matthew 
20. verses 18 and 19, "We are going up to Jerusalem, and they
will 
condemn Me to death. and will deliver Me over to the Gentiles, to mock

and whip and crucify Me." Jesus said, "I lay down My life."
If anyone 
was guilty, Jesus was. He said, "I have the power to lay it down,
I 
have the power to take it up." 

Also, Mr. Deedat, I feel that both you and I are responsible, because

the Bible says,"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory
of God" 
(Romans 3:23). It was our sins that drove Jesus Christ to the cross.

The fourth fact that I learned is that the Christians are called to

an intelligent. intellectual faith - not a blind faith. I was quite

surprised when I read in the little booklet, What Was the Sign of 
Jonah? by Mr. Ahmed Deedat, that over one thousand million Christians

today blindly accept that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ. I'm a little

confused, because really, Mr. Deedat, you read from the Qur'an and
you 
said you accept it, you don't need facts, you don't need any evidence.

You simply accept it and then you're saying that Christians, because

they accept what God, Yahweh, has revealed through the Holy Bible,
that 
Jesus is the Christ, that because we accept that, we do it blindly.
I'm 
amazed, because in the Muslim book, the Qur'an, it states that one
of 
the titles given to Jesus is "al-Masih." I believe it is
referred to 11 
times that way. The Muslim translator of the Qur'an into English, Yusuf

Ali, translates the Arabic here as "Christ" in the English
translation. 
So, why are we accused of being blind in accepting Jesus as the Christ?

In my country, one of the greatest legal minds that ever lived - the

man who made the university of Harvard famous - was Dr. Simon 
Greenleaf. He became a Christian through trying to refute Jesus Christ

as the Eternal Word and the resurrection. Finally, after trying to
do 
it, he came to the conclusion that the resurrection of Jesus Christ
is 
one of the best established events of history, according to the laws
of 
legal evidence administered in the courts of justice. 

C.S. Lewis, the literary genius of our age, was the professor of 
medieval and renaissance literature at Oxford. He was a giant in his

field. No one could question his intellectual capabilities. He became

a believer in Jesus Christ as his Savior and Lord when he tried to

refute the reliability of the New Testament and he couldn't. And he

said, "I was one of the most reluctant converts, but I was brought
to 
Jesus Christ because of my mind." 

Lord Caldecote, the Lord Chief Justice of England, a man that held

the highest offices that anyone could hold in the legal systems of

England, said, " ... as often as I have tried to examine the evidence

for Christianity, I have come to believe it as a fact beyond dispute."

Thomas Arnold was the headmaster of a major varsity and university

for 14 years. He is an historian and the author of the famous three-

volume series, the History of Rome. He said, "I know of no one
fact in 
the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence

than the resurrection of Jesus Christ." 

Dr. Werner von Braun, the German scientist - the man who immigrated

to my country - was one of the creators of the American Space Program.

He said he never really became a scientist until he came to know Jesus

Christ personally as Savior and God. 

The fifth fact that I discovered was the historical accuracy of the

Christian Bible. The Christian New Testament is exceptional in its

reliability and trustworthiness and survival down through history.
It 
is unrivaled in manuscript authority. A manuscript is a hand-written

copy over against a printed copy. Men and women, of the Christian New

Testament alone, there are more than 24,000 manuscripts. Not versions

of the Bible, Mr. Deedat, manuscript copies. Men and women, the number

two book in all of history in manuscript authority and literature,
is 
Homer's Iliad, with 643. The number two book in the whole of history

in manuscript authority. 

Then, Sir Frederick Kenyon was a man who was second to no one in the

ability and the training to make authoritative statements about manu-

scripts of literature in history. The former curator and director of

the British Museum, he said, "The last foundation for any doubt
that 
the Scriptures have come down to us as they were written now has been

removed. Both the authenticity and the general integrity of the books

of the New Testament may now be regarded as finally established."

The point: there are some people who do not have an historical per-

spective of literature, who try to make an issue out of the fact that

the writers of the four accounts of the gospel, Matthew, Mark, Luke
and 
John, never signed their names. Please, men and women, we need to go

back through history and see how they did it then. 

First of all, the manuscripts were so well-accepted as being authori-

tative, with everyone knowing who wrote them, they did not need names

placed on them. You might say it was the writers' way of not distrac-

ting from the purpose of making Jesus Christ the central issue. Also,

the work of these authors, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, went through

the apostolic age. They went through the test of the apostolic period

of the first century to confirm their accuracy, authenticity and reli-

ability. Other people, through limited reading and absence of any type

of research, say that the documents of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John

are hearsay because the writers were not eyewitnesses of the events

surrounding the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ. 

The people who say that will often appeal to Mark 14:50. They say 
that within two minutes they could dismiss the argument because Jesus'

followers all left Him and fled. So therefore, everything was hearsay.

Men and women. this line of reasoning ignores common sense in the 
facts of the case. For example, read just the next four verses. It

says this: "And Peter followed Him." You see, they left Him
in a group, 
but they came back individually - immediately, Mr. Deedat. 

Verse 4 says: "And Peter followed Him at a distance." He
went right 
into the courtyard of the high priest. And he was sitting there with

the officer. Can you imagine? With the officers, and warming himself.

In Mark 14, it says, "And Peter was below, in the courtyard."
Men and 
women, if you have studied the Scriptures, you'll realize that Mark,

in his gospel, was writing down all the eyewitness accounts of Peter.

Peter was right there. Then we go to John 18, verse 15: "And Simon

Peter was following Jesus, and so was another disciple. Now that 
disciple was known to the high priest and entered with Jesus into the

court of the high priest." John 19:26, "When Jesus therefore
saw His 
mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to
His 
mother, 'Woman, behold your son.' " They were eyewitnesses. They
were 
there. 

About being permissible in a court of law. In most legal situations,

you have what can be referred to as an ancient document rule. Now,
you 
have to go to law to substantiate these things. Dr. John Warwick 
Montgomery is a lawyer and dean of the Simon Greenleaf School of Law,

and a lecturer at the International School of Theology and Law in 
Strasbourg, France. 

He said that the application of the ancient document rule to the 
documents of the New Testament (especially the four gospels) - this
is 
a head of a law school speaking - "Applied to the gospel records,
and 
reinforced by responsible lower (textual) criticism, this rule would

establish competency in any court of law." 

The greatest eyewitness testimony is not found in the gospels. It is

found in I Corinthians, the epistle by the apostle Paul, chapter 15,

and was written in A.D. 55 to 56. I have yet to find a reputable scho-

lar who would deny that. Paul says (now it's 20 years earlier, right

after his conversion - he had met with the leaders. He had met with

James, the brother of Jesus in Jerusalem), that the tradition was 
passed on to him that there were over 500 eyewitnesses of the resur-

rection. If you take that into a court of law, give each eyewitness

just six minutes, that would make 3,000 minutes of eyewitness testi-

mony, or 50 hours of eyewitness testimony. 

However, that's not the key point here. That was the tradition handed

down to him, what he had examined personally. But Paul says then, the

majority of them are still alive right now. Not when the tradition
was 
passed down, but right now. Men and women, Paul was saying, "If
you 
don't believe me, ask them." 

Also, many people overlook the fact that when the message of Jesus

Christ was presented by the apostles and disciples, and the New 
Testament was shared, present in the audience were hostile and antago-

nistic witnesses. If they would have dared to depart from the truth
of 
what was said, there were hostile witnesses to correct them immediate-

ly. In a court of law that is referred to as the principle of cross-

examination. They did not dare to depart from the truth. Also, apart

from the Bible, you have several extra biblical secular sources. 

One, a man by the name of Polycarp, was a disciple of the apostle 
John. He writes in his works. going back almost 2.000 years ago, "So

firm is the ground upon which these gospels rest, that even the here-

tics themselves would not undermine it." They had to start from
what 
was presented and then develop their own heresy. Because even then,

they could not say, Jesus didn't say that. Jesus didn't do that then...

they couldn't do that. So, they had to start with what He said, and

develop their own heresy. 

The conclusion of many scholars is a tremendous confidence in the 
Christian Bible. Mr. Millar Burrows was on the staff of Yale Univer-

sity. one of the most prestigious universities in my country. He said.

"There is an increase of confidence in the accurate transmission
of 
the text of the New Testament itself." Dr. Howard Vox, a researcher

and archaeologist, said, "From the standpoint of literary evidence,

the only logical conclusion is in the case where the reliability of

the New Testament is infinitely stronger than any other record of 
antiquity." 

The sixth fact that I discovered was that Christ was crucified. What

does the historical, reliable record show? It is clear, not only from

the Christian's biblical historical record, but also from secular sour-

ces, which are documented in the back of my book, Evidence That Demands

a Verdict, that He not only predicted His death by crucifixion, but

that He was actually crucified. Jesus said that He would be whipped

and delivered over to be crucified. And then. in John 19:17. 18, "They

took Jesus therefore, and He went out, bearing His own cross, to the

place called the Place of a Skull.... There they crucified Him, and

with Him two other men, one on either side, and Jesus in between."

Let's follow through what actually happened. First of all, it points

out that Jesus was whipped by the Romans. What did that mean? The Ro-

mans would strip a person down to the waist and would tie him in the

courtyard. Then they would take a whip that had a handle about a foot

and a half long. At the end of the handle, it had four leather thongs

with heavy, jagged bones or balls of lead with jagged edges, wound

into the end of the straps. A minimum of five. They would be different

lengths. The Romans would bring the whip down over the back of the

individual and all the balls of lead or bone would hit the body at
the 
same time. and they they would yank the whip down. The Jews would only

permit 40 lashes. So they never did more than 39 so they wouldn't 
break the law if they miscounted. The Romans could do as many as they

wanted. So, when the Romans whipped a Jew, they did 41 or more out
of 
spite to the Jews. And so he had probably at least 41, if not more,

lashes. 

There are several medical authorities that have done research on 
crucifixion. One is a Dr. Barbet, in France, and another is Dr. C.

Truman Davis, in the state of Arizona in my country. He is a medical

doctor who has done meticulous study of the crucifixion from a medical

perspective. Here he gives the effect of the Roman flogging: 

"The heavy whip is brought down with full force again and again

across (a person's) shoulders, back and legs. At first, the heavy 
thongs cut through the skin only. Then, as the blows continue, they

cut deeper into the subcutalleous tissues, producing first an oozing

of blood from the capillaries and veins of the skin, and finally spur-

ting arterial bleeding from vessels in the underlying muscles. The

small balls of lead first produce large, deep bruises, which the 
others cut wide open. Finally, the skin of the back is hanging in long

ribbons, and the entire area is an unrecognizable mass of torn, bleed-

ing tissue." 

Other sources I have documented said that sometimes the back is 
literally opened up to the bowels within. Many people would die just

from the whipping. 

After the whipping they took Jesus out to the execution area and 
drove spikes into His wrists and His feet. It says that late that 
Friday afternoon they broke the legs of the two thieves hanging with

Jesus, but they did not break His legs. Now, why did they break some-

one's legs? When you are prostrate on the cross, or hanging there,

they bent the legs up underneath and drove the spike through here.

When you died by crucifixion, often what would happen is you would
die 
from your own air. The pectoral muscles would be affected and you could

not let your air out. You could take it in, but could not let it out.

And so, you'd hang there and suffocate, you would push up on your 
legs to let the air out, and then come down to take it in. When they

wanted to bring about the death immediately, they broke their legs
and 
they couldn't push up, and they would die. Jesus' legs were not broken.

As the Holy God, revealing His Holy Word in the Bible, points out,

Jesus had died. Men and women, if they had broken His legs, He would

not have been our Messiah. He would not have been the Eternal Word,

because God, Yahweh in the Old Testament, prophesies in Psalms that

His legs would not be broken. His bones would not be broken. Men and

women, He was fulfilling what God, Yahweh, had already revealed would

take place. 

The next fact that I discovered was that Christ was dead. That's the

seventh fact that I discovered, Men and women, in John 19:30, Jesus

willed Himself to die, That's why He didn't take so long, He came to

die. He said, "I lay My life down." And in John 19, He said,
"It is 
finished," and He bowed His head and He gave up the Spirit, He
willed 
Himself to die, Now, in John 19, verse 34 (Mr. Deedat, in his booklet,

has referred to it as 'Evidence That Jesus Was Not Dead') you have

reference to the blood and water. 

He was on the cross and they'd already acknowledged Him being dead,

but they thought they'd give a parting shot, as you would say, They

took a spear, and thrust it into His side. Eyewitness accounts said

blood and water came out separated, Mr. Deedat, in his book, appealed

to this phenomenon as evidence that Christ was still alive, He supports

this in his writing, by an appeal to an article in the Thinkers Digest

1949, by an anesthesiologist. I was able to acquire medical research

by various people in this area. 

I have time to share just two of the findings. First, from a scho-

lastic viewpoint: many medical and university or varsity libraries

that once carried this journal, no longer do so. It is considered by

many in the medical field to be not only out of date, but behind the

medical times. 

Second, from a medical viewpoint: A wound of the type inflicted on

Jesus, if the person were still alive, would not bleed out the wound

opening, but bleed into the chest cavity, causing an internal hemorrh-

age. At the aperture of the wound, the blood would be barely oozing

from the opening, For a spear to form a perfect channel that would

allow the blood and serum to flow out the spear wound is next to im-

possible. The massive internal damage done to a person under cruci-

fixion, and then being speared in the heart area, would cause death

almost immediately, not even including what happens with the details

of a Jew's burial. 

At the State of Massachusetts General Hospital, over a period of 
years, they did research on people who died of a ruptured heart. 
Normally, the heart had 20 cc's of pericardial fluid. When a person

dies of a ruptured heart, there is more than 500 cc's of pericardial

fluid, And it would come out in the form of a fluid and clotted blood.

Perhaps this is what was viewed at that time. 

The Jewish burial would have been a final death blow. Mr. Deedat says

in his book, page 9, in "What Was the Sign of Jonah"? that
they gave 
the Jewish burial bath, plastered him with 100 pounds of aloe and 
myrrh. Now, going through whipping, where the back is almost laid open,

having your arms and feet pierced, being put on a cross, having a spear

thrust in your side, being taken down and then plastered with 100-some

pounds of spices of cement consistency - it would call for a greater

miracle than the resurrection to live through that, 

Then, the severe discipline of the Romans. Pilate was a little 
amazed, and I would have been too, that Christ had already been dead,

or that they had come and asked for the body, So, he called a centurion

in. And he said, "I want you to go and confirm to me that Jesus
is 
dead." Now men and women, this centurion was not a fool. He was
not 
about ready to leave his wife a widow. 

The centurion would always check with four different executioners.

That was Roman law. There had to be four executioners. They did that

so in case one man was a little lax, the other one would catch him
in 
it, And you would never have all four lax in signing the death warrant.

Discipline was severe with the Romans. 

For example, when the angel let Peter out of jail in Acts 12 in the

New Testament, Herod called in the guard and executed them all - just

for letting one man out of jail. In Acts 16 in the Christian New Testa-

ment, the doors had been opened up in the jail for Paul and Silas,

their chains had been loosened, and the moment the guard saw they were

freed, he pulled out his own sword to execute himself. And Paul said,

"Wait a minute!" You see, that guard knew what would happen,
He would 
rather die by his own sword, than be executed by the Romans. 

Then Christ was dead. Flavius Josephus, the Jewish historian, records

that when he went into Jerusalem in A.D. 70 when Titus was destroying

it, he saw three of his friends being crucified. They had just been
put 
up there. They had been whipped and everything. He went to the com-

mander of the guard and he said, "Please release them." Now,
you have 
to understand, Flavius was the name given to Josephus by the Roman

Emperor who had brought him into his own family. That's why he had

influence as a Jew. And you know, immediately, the Roman guard captain

took the three men down from the cross and still, men and women, two

of the three died. They'd just been put up there and they were removed

quickly. Crucifixion was that cruel. 

The Jews knew that Jesus was dead. In Matthew 27 they went to the 
Roman leader and said, "Sir, we remember that when He was still
alive. 
..." In other words, what is He now? Dead! "When He was still
alive 
He said, 'After three days I am to rise again.' "I believe Mr.
Deedat 
has his books saying that the Jews realized they'd made a mistake.
He 
really wasn't dead, so they thought they wouldn't make a second mis-

take, so they go and get a guard unit put there. Well, the Jews them-

selves said He was already dead. "We just want to make sure no
one 
takes His body so there won't be any deception." The Jews have
been 
accused of a lot of things, but very seldom have they ever been accused

of stupidity. They knew He was dead. 

The next fact I discovered was the burial procedure of the Jews. Some

people say they were hurrying because of the Sabbath coming, and they

had to carry Him back. Men and women, I checked this out in detail.
And 
I documented in my Resurrection Factor book that the burial procedure

was so important they could even do it on the Sabbath. They didn't
have 
to worry about the Sabbath coming up. They didn't want the body to
hang 
on the cross once the Sabbath began, but they could take their time

burying Him. They would put spices around the body - in this case,
100 
pounds of aromatic spices - along with a gummy, cement substance. 

They would stretch the body out or straighten it out. They'd take a

piece of linen cloth 30 centimeters wide. They would start to wrap
the 
body from the feet. In between the folds, they put the cement consist-

ency and the spices. They wrapped the body to the armpits, put the
arms 
down, started below the fingers again, wrapped to the neck, and put
a 
separate piece around the head. In this situation, I would estimate
an 
encasement of 117 to 120 pounds. 

The next fact that I discovered is that they took extreme security

precautions at the tomb of Jesus Christ. One, it says that they rolled

large stone against the tomb. Mark says the stone was extremely large.

One historical reference going back to the first century says that
20 
men could not move the stone. Now. I think it was exaggerated a little

bit there. But he was making a point about the size of the stone. Two

engineering professors. after they heard me speak on the stone, went

to Israel. As non-Christian engineering professors, they calculated

the size stone needed to roll against a four-and-a-half to five-foot

doorway of the Jewish tombs. They wrote me a well-documented letter,

and said it would have to have a minimum weight of one and a half to

two tons. 

Mr. Deedat, in his books, makes an issue that one man, or two at the

most, rolled the stone against the entrance. Therefore, one or two
men 
could roll it back. It says Joseph of Arimathea rolled the stone 
against the entrance. Don't force on the Bible or the Qur'an anything

you would not force in conversation today. For example: when I came
to 
the stadium the other day to look it over. I said to one of the people

that brought me here, "How did all these chairs get here?"
He said, "Mr. 
Deedat brought them." Mr. Deedat, did you bring all 700 of these

chairs personally, yourself? No! They were brought by many people.
I 
could go away from here saying Mr. Deedat put on this symposium. But
I 
think there were some others that helped make all the arrangements.

History says Hitler invaded France. Now, maybe he would have tried

it in France alone, but I don't think he would try it in South Africa
alone. 

There could have been a number of people that helped Joseph of Arima-

thea. Plus, you find when you go back and research it out that the

tombs had a trough going up the side. They placed the stone there.
They 
had a block. Then, men and women, my seven-year-old daughter could
roll 
it, because you simply pull up the block, letting the stone roll down

the front and lodge itself against the entrance of the tomb. 

Then, a security guard was put there. The Jews wanted one. They went

to the Romans and said, give us a guard unit. The Greek word was 
kustodia. Men and women, a kustodia was a 16-man security unit. Each

man was trained to protect six square feet of ground. The 16 men, 
according to Roman history, were supposed to be able to protect 6 
square yards against an entire battalion and hold it. Each guard had

four weapons on his body. He was a fighting machine, almost the same

as was true of the Temple Police. 

Next, a Roman seal was placed on the tomb with a Roman insignia. 
That seal stood for the power and the authority of the Roman Empire.

The body of Christ was encased with 100 and some pounds of cement and

aromatic spices. A one-and-a-half to two-ton stone was rolled against

the entrance: a 16-man security unit was placed there, and a Roman

seal. But something happened. It's a matter of historical record: 
after three days, the tomb was empty. 

I don't have to debate that. Mr. Deedat agrees the tomb was empty.

So, I won't waste any time here. 

The sign of Jonah - I'm so glad you brought that up. The sign of 
Jonah - won't take too much time there because I don't think it's 
necessary in this sense. Whenever you study something, you study it

in the language and the culture of that day. Now, you go back to the

Jewish language, and the Jewish culture of that day. Not today - not

South African, not Indian, not American. The Jewish-Israelite culture

of that day. 

Let's see what three days and three nights mean. In Esther, chapter

4, in the Old Testament of the Christian Jewish Bible, it says there

was a fast for three days and three nights. But then. it went on, and

it says they completed the fast on the third day. You see. in Jewish

language, "after three days and three nights," meant "to
the third day" 
or "on the third day." Jesus said in Matthew 12:40 He would
be buried 
for three days and three nights. 

In Matthew 20, Jesus said He would be raised up on the third day -

not after the third day. The Jews came to Jesus, and they said in 
Matthew 27, verse 63, "Sir...that deceiver said 'After three days
I am 
to rise again.'" So, they asked for a Roman guard. Now watch the
langu- 
age here. "Therefore, give orders for the grave to be made secure
until 
the third day," not after the third day. They knew what Jesus
said, 
three days and three nights, meant until the third day, "lest
His 
disciples come and steal Him away." 

Friday before six o'clock they had three hours to bury Him. It took

less than an hour. The Jewish reckoning of time in the Jewish Talmud

and the Babylonian Jerusalem Talmud (the commentaries of the Jews),

said any part, an "onan" - any part of the day is considered
a full 
day. On Friday before six o'clock by Jewish reckoning, any minute was

one day and one night. From Friday night at six o'clock to Saturday
at 
six o'clock, was another day and another night. 

Men and women, from Jewish reckoning - not ours - any moment after

six o'clock Saturday night is another day, another night. We do the

same thing in my country. If my son was born one minute before midnight

on December the 31st, on my income taxes to my government, I could

treat my son with the same time principle as having been born at any

time during that one full year - 365 days and 365 nights. 

When the Roman guards failed in their duty, they were automatically

executed. One way they were executed was they were stripped of their

clothes and burned alive in a fire started with their own clothes.
The 
seal was broken. Men and women, when that seal was broken, the security

forces were thrown into finding that man or men, and when they were

found, anyone breaking that seal was condemned to crucifixion upside

down. 

The stone was removed, men and women, and I'll ask Mr. Deedat to 
check it out carefully. The revealed Word of God in the Christian New

Testament, in the original Greek (as the Qur'an is in Arabic, the New

Testament is in Greek), points out that a one-and-a-half- to two-ton

stone was rolled up a slope, away from not just the entrance, but away

from the entire tomb, looking like it had been picked up and carried

away. Now, if they wanted to tip-toe in, move the stone over, and help

Jesus out, why all the efforts to move a one-and a-half to two-ton

stone up away from the entire sepulchre? That guard unit would have

had to have been sleeping with cotton in their ears and with earmuffs

on not to have heard that one. 

Then, Mary went to the tomb in John 20. Mr. Deedat says that she went

there to anoint the body and that the word "anoint" means
"to massage." 
Well, let me tell you, if that's true - it's not - but if it were true,

and that's the way the Muslims do it, it would have killed Jesus. If
I 
went through crucifixion, had my hands and feet pierced, my back laid

open to the bowels, 100 and some pounds put around me, I wouldn't want

anyone to massage me. The word "anoint" means "consecrated."
As Mr. 
Deedat brought out in his book, the priests and kings were anointed

when being consecrated to their office. When He said, "Touch Me
not," 
Mr. Deedat says it means, "I am hurting - don't touch Me."
Well, read 
the next phrase, Mr. Deedat. It says, "Do not touch Me, because
I 
haven't yet ascended to the Father." 

That's why they're not to touch Him because "I haven't ascended
to 
the Father." And then He says, "Now, go tell My disciples
I am ascen- 
ding to the Father." A little bit later, He says, "You can
touch Me. 
Grab My feet." Why did He do that? Oh, men and women, this is
one of 
the most beautiful things. In the Old Testament, at the tabernacle,

the Jewish high priest would take the sacrifice into the Holy of 
Holies. And the people would wait outside, because they knew if God

did not accept their sacrifice, the priest would be struck dead. 

They would wait for the high priest to come back. And when the high

priest walked back out, everybody shouted with joy! Because they said,

"God has accepted our sacrifice" Jesus said, "Don't
touch Me ... I've 
not ascended to the Father." Jesus, between that time and when
the 
others grabbed hold of Him and touched Him, ascended to God the Father,

presented Himself as a sacrifice, and, ladies and gentlemen, if Jesus

had not come back, if He had not permitted the others to touch Him,
it 
would have meant His sacrifice had not been accepted. But I thank God

He came back and said, "Touch Me". It's been accepted. 

As for the spiritual physical body of Jesus Christ, I think, Mr. 
Deedat, you need to first study our Scriptures. I think you need to

read just as I did to study your scriptures. You need to read I Corin-

thians 15:44, 51. The explanation of the glorified, imperishable body.

It was a spiritual body, and yet, it had substance. He could walk 
through a door; He could appear in their presence. He didn't need food,

but He took food. Otherwise, they would have said, "You're merely
a 
spirit." No, He had what the Bible called the resurrected, glorified,

incorruptible body. And if I were in that room and I knew I'd seen
Him 
crucified, buried and everything else, and all of a sudden, with the

doors locked, He appeared in the midst of the group, I think I'd be
a 
little frightened, too. Men and women, Jesus Christ is raised from
the 
dead! Thank you. 

* REBUTTALS 

# Ahmed Deedat 

Mr. Chairman, and ladies and gentlemen of the jury. The crux of
the 
problem - the clear-cut statement by Jesus Christ, is the mistake that

the disciples were making in thinking that He had come back from the

dead. By assuring them that "a spirit has no flesh and bones,
as you 
see Me have." This is King's English, basic English. And one does
not 
need a dictionary or a lawyer to explain to you what it implies. 

Throughout the length and breadth of the 27 books of the New 
Testament, there is not a single statement made by Jesus Christ that

"I was dead, and I have come back from the dead." The Christian
has 
been belaboring the word resurrection. Again and again, by repetition,

it is conveyed that it is proving a fact. You keep on seeing the man,

the man's eating food, as though He was resurrected. He appears in
the 
upper room - He was resurrected. Jesus Christ never uttered that word

that "I have come back from the dead," in the 27 books of
the New 
Testament, not once. 

He was there with them for 40 days. And He never uttered that 
statement. He is proving again and again that He was that same Jesus,

the one who had escaped death, so to say, by the skin of His teeth.

Because He was ever in disguise. He never showed Himself openly to
the 
Jews. He had given them a sign. "No sign shall be given unto it
except 
the sign of Jonah." No sign, but this. And He never went back
to them 
to the temple of Jerusalem, to tell them, "Here I am." Not
once. He was 
ever in hiding. Now, we will not belabor the things that have passed.

The points were, that Jesus was not reluctant to die. He had actually

come for this purpose. Now, my reading of the Scriptures tells me that

not only was He reluctant, but He was preparing for a show-down with

the Jews. You see, at the last Supper, He raises the problem of de-

fense, telling His disciples, "As you remember, when I sent you
out on 
your mission of preaching and healing, I told you that you were not
to 
carry anything with you. No purse, no sticks. No staff. Did you lack

anything?" 

And they said "No, we lacked nothing." But now, I tell you,
He tells 
them, "Those of you who have no swords must sell their garments
and 
buy them." You must sell your garments and buy swords. I'm asking
you, 
what do you do with swords? You peel apples? Or you cut people's 
throats? What do you do with swords? So one of them said, "Master,
we 
have two already." And He said, "That is enough." 

And He takes His disciples - 11 of them. Judas had already gone to

betray Him. Eleven disciples and Himself, and they walk to Gethsemane.

And at Gethsemane - read the book, read your gospels - and it'll tell

you that Jesus put eight men at the gate. I'm asking you, why should

He go to Gethsemane in the first place? And why put eight at the gate,

telling them, "Tarry ye here, and watch with Me." 

He means, stop here, and keep guard. Guarding what? What was there

to guard in Gethsemane? A courtyard, olive press, empty place. What

were they, the disciples, to guard five miles out of town at Gethse-

mane? Then He takes with Him, Peter, and the two sons of Zebedee. At

least two of them had swords. And He makes an inner line of defense

and He tells them, "Tarry ye here, sit ye here, and watch with
Me. 
While I go and pray yonder... I alone go and pray beyond." I'm
asking 
you, why did He go to Gethsemane? Why did He go there - to pray? 
Couldn't He have prayed in that upper room, while there at the Last

Supper? Couldn't He have gone to the temple of Jerusalem, a stone's

throw from where they were? Why go five miles out of town? And why
put 
eight at the gate? And why make an inner line of defense? 

And He goes a little farther, and falls on His face, and He prays to

God. "Oh, my Father ... if it be possible, let this cup pass from
Me." 
Meaning, remove the difficulty from Me, but not as I will, but as Thou

wilt. In the end, I leave it to You. But I want You to save Me. And,

being in agony, He prayed more earnestly, and His sweat was as if it

were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. Is this how one

man, a person goes to commit suicide? Is this how the person who is

ordained from the foundation of the earth, for the sacrifice, is this

how He behaves, I ask you? 

That He is sweating, it says, being in an agony, He prays more 
earnestly, and His sweat was as if it were great drops of blood falling

down to the ground. And the Lord of Mercy sends His angel, says the

Bible. An angel came to strengthen Him. I say, in what? In the belief

that God was going to save Him. What does the angel come to strengthen

Him in? To save Him. And in everything that happened from there onward,

you can see God planning His rescue. Look. The fact was that the pro-

phecy He had made was that He would be like Jonah - and we are told

that He was unlike Jonah. He didn't fulfill. Jonah is alive, Jesus
is dead. 

Then, Pontius Pilate - he marveled when he was told that Jesus was

dead because in his knowledge, he knew no man can die within three

hours on the cross. Because this crucifixion was to be a slow, linger-

ing death. This was the real purpose of crucifixion. It was not getting

rid of an anti-social character, like a firing squad, or hanging, or

impaling a person. It was a slow, lingering death. 

And the bones were not broken - says the Bible. It was a fulfillment

of prophecy. Now, the bones of an individual - of a dead person - 
whether you break them or not, is of the least consequence. If the

bones were not broken, the only time it can help anybody, is if the

person was alive. So you see, for 2,000 years now, it's a programming,

a continuous programming. And Paul has put the whole gamut of religion

on one point: on this death and resurrection, because he tells us,

I Corinthians, chapter 15, verse 14, that "if Christ is not risen
from 
the dead, our preaching is in vain: our faith is in vain." Useless!

You haven't got a thing! 

So now, like drowning men clutching at straws, the Christian must,

by hook or by crook, prove that somehow crucifixion killed the man,
so 
we can earn salvation. Now, we would like you, Mr. Chairman, ladies
and 
gentlemen of the jury, to read this book once more, and the testimony,

word for word. If you examine the prophecies - what Jesus says. and
the 
way He behaves - they are conclusive proof that Christ had not been

crucified . 

# Josh McDowell 

I'm not sure that I heard, but did you say, "Nowhere in the
27 books 
of the New Testament did Jesus ever say He was 'dead and now alive'"?

May I read to you from the book of Revelation, chapter 1, verse 18?
He 
said, "I am the living one. I was dead, and behold, I am alive
forever- 
more." Also, Mr. Deedat, He appeared to the Jews. The whole New
Testa- 
ment Church was started with Jews. He appeared to the Jewish anta-

gonist, the apostle Paul, when he was Saul of Tarsus. 

But men and women, the greatest thrill to me, when it comes to the

resurrection and Christ as my Life and Savior, is that God Yahweh has

promised, when a man enters into that relationship through asking 
Christ to forgive him, who died for our sins, was buried and raised

again on the third day, that God, the Holy Spirit, enters that person

and changes them. And one of the greatest evidences is my own life.

After I came to the point where I acknowledged Jesus Christ as my 
Savior and Lord, surrendered my will up to Him, and trusted Him, men

and women, in about six months to a year, or a year and a half, the

major areas of my life were changed. 

First, I developed a desire to live a holy and godly life. Second,
I 
started to experience a peace and genuine joy - it wasn't because I

don't have conflict - it's in spite of conflict, the peace that God

gives through Jesus Christ. Third, I gained control over my temper.
I 
almost killed a young man my first year in a university. I was con-

stantly losing my temper. After I trusted Jesus as Savior and Lord,
I 
would catch myself arising to the crisis of losing my temper, and it

was gone! 

Not only my friends noticed it, but my enemies did a lot sooner. And

only once now, in 22 years that I have had a personal relationship
with 
God Yahweh, the Father, through His Eternal Word, the Son, only once

have I lost my temper. He has given me a supernatural strength over
it. 

The greatest area, men and women, that I'm thankful I can share here,

is the very love of God. In this sense: My father was the town alco-

holic. I hardly ever knew my father when he was not drunk. My friends

in school would make jokes about my father making a fool of himself.

I lived on a farm and I'd go out to the barn and see my mother lying

in the gutter in the manure - the bathroom of the cows - beaten so

badly by my father, my mother couldn't get up and walk. 

We would have friends over. I'd take my father, tie him up in the 
bam, and park the car up around the side, and tell my friends he had

to go on an important business trip, so I wouldn't be embarrassed.
I'd 
take him into the bam where the cows would have their little calves.

I'd put his arms through the boards, and tie them. I'd put a rope 
around his neck and pull his head all the way over the backboard, and

tie it around the feet, so if he shuffled his feet, he would kill himself.

One evening, two months before I graduated from high school, I came

home from a date. When I went into the house, I heard my mother crying

profusely. And I said, "What's wrong?" She said, "Your
father has 
broken my heart. And all I want to do is live until you graduate, then

I just want to die." 

Do you know, two months later, I graduated. And the next Friday, the

13th, my mother died. Don't tell me that you can't die of a broken

heart. My mother did, and my father broke it. There was no one I could

have hated more. But men and women, when I came into this relationship

with God Yahweh, through His Eternal Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, after

a short period of time, the love of God took control of my life, and

He took that hatred and turned it upside down. 

So much so, I was able to look my father square in the eyes and say:

"Dad, I love you." And the neatest thing is, I really meant
it! I 
transferred to another varsity or university. I was in a serious car

accident with my legs, arm and neck in traction. I was taken home.
My 
father came into my room. He was very sober because he thought I was

almost dead. He asked me this question: "How can you love a father

such as I?" I said, "Dad, six months ago, I despised you.
I hated you." 
Then I shared with him how I'd come to the conclusion seen so clearly,

that God Yahweh, the Father, had manifested Himself to us, humanity

through the Eternal Word, His Son. And then He had died for our sins,

that's the anguish He went through, Mr. Deedat. 

If you could imagine all the sins in the world - just your sins and

my sins would be enough. But all the sins in the world are upon the

Son. The anguish that was involved. And I said, "Dad, I asked
Christ 
to forgive me. I asked Him to come into my life as Savior and Lord."

I said, "Dad, as the result of that, I have found the capacity
to love 
and accept not only you, but other people just the way they are."

I can look at you, Mr. Deedat, and say, "I honestly love you ...
God 
has given me a love for you ... I love you so much, I would love to

have you come to know Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord." And my
father 
finally just said, "Son, if your God can do in my life what I
have seen 
Him do in your life, then I want to know Him personally." 

Right there, my father just prayed something like this: "God,
if 
You're God, and Christ is the Eternal Word, Your Son, if You can for-

give me and come into my life and change me, then I want to know You

personally." 

Men and women, my life was basically changed in six months to a year,

to a year and a half. And there are still many areas for God to change.

But then, take my father. His life was changed right before my eyes.

Mr. Deedat, it was like somebody reached out and turned on a light

bulb. Do you know, he only touched whiskey once after that. He got
it 
to his lips, and that was it. He didn't need it anymore. Fourteen 
months later, he died. Because three-fourths of his stomach had to
be 
removed, as a result of 40-some years of drinking. But do you know,

ladies and gentlemen, in that 14-month period, scores of businessmen

in my home town and the surrounding area committed their lives to the

living God, through the Eternal Word, Jesus Christ, because of the

changed life of one of the town's drunks. 

My wife, Dottie, puts it this way. She says, "Honey, because Christ

was raised from the dead, He lives. And because He lives, He has the

infinite capacity through the Holy Spirit to enter a man or woman's

life, and change them from the inside out." That is why the resur-

rected, living Christ said in one of the 27 books of the New Testament,

"I was dead, now I am alive." He can say, "I stand at
the door of your 
life and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will

come in." 

* CLOSING STATEMENTS 

# Ahmed Deedat 

Mr. Chairman and ladies and gentlemen of the jury. Man is coward
by 
nature. From the beginning of Adam, you remember, passing the buck.

It's not me, it's the woman; and the woman, it's not me, it's the ser-

pent. Man is coward by nature. And we want somebody else to carry the

burden for us. We want somebody else to take the medicine when we are

sick. We want somebody else's appendix to be removed, when ours is

rotten. This is man in general. 

But this is not what Jesus Christ said. He wanted you to take up your

own cross - get yourself crucified. Listen! He says, "He is not
of Me 
who does not take his cross and follow Me." Take up your cross
and 
follow Me. In other words. Get yourself crucified. No, no, no. No,
He 
didn't mean that. What He meant was, that as I carry My responsibility,

you carry yours. As I pray, you pray. As I fast. you fast: as I'm 
circumcised, you be circumcised, what I do, you do. You carry your
own 
responsibility. 

This is what He meant. Now, that is the Islamic system! This is what

Islam teaches. You see, the system that saves you after years of al-

coholism, after years of pinching 10 cents from the collection plate,

you read it here, in Josh's book, He says every Sunday, the only thing

he got out of church was he was putting in 25 cents and taking out
35 
for milk-shakes. And then, later on in life, if you study, we find
the 
same thing is being done on a very high level of intellectualism, But

we haven't got the time to go into that. 

Let me end with the message of Jesus: He says, "Verily, verily,
I say 
unto you, except your righteousness exceed the righteousness of the

scribes and the pharisees, you shall by no means enter the kingdom
of 
heaven." There's no heaven for you. This is what He says; these
are His 
words. And what is happening is, you are not contradicting His words.

This is Islam! Unless you are better than the Jews, there is no heaven

for you. 

He didn't say it's the blood, but your righteousness, You must be 
better than the Jews, You must fast, as the Jews fasted, but on a 
higher level: you must pray, as the Jews prayed, but on a higher level,

you must give charity, as the Jews gave charity, but on a higher level.

And that is Islam. 

So, Mr, Chairman, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I say that this

resurrection, as has been addressed by Josh in America, under the 
heading, "Hoax or History," I will conclude that here are
one thousand 
million people being taken for a ride on a cross. In Durban, every

week, we have horses taking thousands of people for a ride - every

horse. But here, you are being taken for a ride on the cross. 

Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen. 

# Josh McDowell 

Mr, Deedat, nowhere in the Christian Bible revealed by God is a

Christian ever commanded to be crucified. We are told to acknowledge

that we are already crucified in Jesus Christ. 

In Romans 8:32, God, speaking from eternity into time, says, "He
who 
did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up ... up for us all."
In 
my country, a young lady, who was picked up for speeding, was brought

before the judge, The judge said, "Guilty or not guilty?"
and she said, 
"Guilty." He brought down the gavel, and the judge fined
her $100 or 10 
days. Then, an amazing thing took place. The judge stood up, took off

his robe, placed it over the back of the chair, went down in front,
and 
paid the fine. He was a just judge. His daughter had broken the law.

No matter how much he loved his daughter, he had to say $100 or 10

days. But he loved her enough, he was willing to go down, and take
the 
penalty upon himself, and pay it. This is a clear illustration of what

God Yahweh has revealed through His Holy Word. God loves us. Christ

died for us. The Bible very clearly points out the wages of sin is

death. So, God had to bring down the gavel. 

But, men and women, He loved us so much, He was able to set aside 
His judicial robe, and come down in the form of the man Jesus Christ.

And go to the cross and pay the price for us. And now, He can say,
"I 
stand at the door of your life and knock. And if anyone hears My voice,

and opens the door, I will come in." 

Yes, Mr. Deedat, one billion Christians are riding on the cross. We

are being taken for a ride. I believe God has provided the cross as

the chariot to heaven, through the shed blood of His divine Son. 

Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen, for giving me the 
privilege, as a person from another country, to come here, and Mr.

Deedat, I am greatly indebted to you for this opportunity. And if you

come to my country, we'll have dinner together. Thank you. 
THE END.

*This text was copied from a Christian Web Site called "Christian
Answers to Islam".