From: harlot@cco.caltech.edu (Munir Bhatti)

Yes, the Illuminaturn was a small, secretive group in Sweden, but few
are familiar with what they accomplished.  It can be argued that they
had no lasting effect on the globe, and so were not a successful
Illuminatus.

My concept of Illuminati is any small group of people that effects great
change and/or has great power over the world.  Jesus and his small group
of twelve could be considered an Illuminatus.  They were a small group
of people that used concepts (rather than, say, weapons) to create tremendous
change.  The also remained in control of the movement of they created.
If one believes, then one can also say that they had the backing of a
super-human entity (God) and thus were truly an Illuminatus group by
most conceptions of the word.

Jesus and his band of 12, however, were not secretive at all, and this
seems to disagree with my conception of Illuminatus.

The Illuminatus is the 'unseen hand' that pulls the global strings, making
everyone dance like marionettes in the power of the Illuminatus.  It is 
essential for the Illuminatus' control, however, that people are not aware of 
this control. For, as we all know, people resent being controlled without their
consent.

This is not to say that some individuals have waived their personal freedom
to acquire a more powerful position in the world scheme.  To reword, the
individual voluntarily becomes a dominion of the Illuminatus, and lives
the waking hours as an agent for the Illuminatus, forwarding the Illuminatus'
agenda.

This is fulfilling for the individual, since he sees that his actions fit
into a global whole.  It is also fulfilling for the Illuminatus.

Let's say, looking at the current and ever-present chaos in the world, that
we assume that there are at least two Illuminati fighting for the domination
of the world.  This would do much to explain the current state of the world.

These Illuminati may have public facades which do not reflect their real roles
in the world.  Just as a crimelord of organized crime may go years without
personally committing a crime, he orders scads of murders, thefts, beatings,
etc. while maintaining the facade of a law-respecting businessman.

The Illuminati may use a conglomeration of companies, say, to secretly raise
the price of grain or oil on a worldwide scale. The Illuminatus might
organize countries to pit their strength against an emerging country to
snuff it.

Governments rise and fall, companies come and go, clubs gain members and
lose members, but an Illuminatus maintains existence over hundreds of human
lifetimes.  Although no group of a few people can constitute an Illuminatus,
a small, powerful group of people can become a segment in the body
of the Illuminatus, which spans the decades and centuries.

Churches (Christian, Catholic, Muslim, Hindu, Bhuddist, Shinto) fulfill
this requirement of existence over hundreds of human lifetimes.  Most
of these religions also fulfill the small group and secrecy requirements,
as most of these religions accept some form of single high-preist leader
or oligarchy and these leaders are usually not well-known to people outside
the religious group. In regard to control of the world, then, I argue
that most religions constitute Illuminati and that their expansion & influence
over the years constitute the actions of these Illuminati.

The lead council of a powerful nation, if it exists long enough, can
constitute on segment in the body of an Illuminatus.  The council that
were their predecessors was the previous segment, and the next council to
follow the present council is the next segment of the Illuminatus.  Just
as with a Millipede, it would be very difficult to guess what the action
of the whole Illuminatus is while looking at just one segment.

Looking at one segment of a millipede  and seeing the legs of that segment
kicking around, for example, it would be impossible to guess(without more
information), whether the millipede is:

*Falling
*Being born
*Being picked up, and rescued from danger.
*Being killed

Please don't take this millipede analogy too far, as it is possible to
take all analogies to far.  It's a little crazy, really to compare something
as encompassing as an Illuminati to something as tiny as a Millipede.

I think I'll open this up for comments now.  Who groups do you think
consititute an Illuminatus over the years, what do they consist of, and
what do they control?  I think these are all good thoughts to ponder on.

munir bhatti (harlot@alumni.caltech.edu)

From: lenb@dvorak.amd.com (Len Bucavalas)

In article <11031993.002456@playgrnd.cts.com>,
Richard Winters  wrote:

>Re: Re: The Alumbrados... and history
>
> > Mr J L Saunders  wrote:
> > >
> > > These two groups are of a religious nature whereas our esteemed american
> > > colleagues would like to point out illuminati influences in the initial star
> > > of their country. Why is the illuminati symbol on the back of the dollar bil
> > > Its latin phrase 'Novus Ordo Seclorum' which I believe to mean 'New secular
> > > order' is completely irreligious.
> > 
> > You believe wrong.  It means "new order of the ages" -- nothing to
> > do with religiousity one way or the other.
>
> heheheheh,  mayhap ye should tell this young one about the rest of the
> significances to our money.....i.e. the dates displayed, the sybolism of
> everything displayed, and all the other obvious icons displayed to those 'in
> the know'
>
> do some RESEARCH people, some serious RESEARCH, and you will either open your
> eyes or go insane......please try to do the former!
>
> Richard Winters   -  Finnius
>

Well now let's see....13 stars...13 the number of a witch's coven? Also the
stars are in the shape of the Star of David, the sign of the Israeli state.
Also there are 13 arrows clutched in the "left" claw. You will also notice that
the eagle itself is simply a clevely disguised Star of David.

On the front of the bill surrounding each numeric figure, totalled, there
are 10 leaves per side for a total of 20. In Numerology, 20 = 2+0 = 2.
Add in the ones on a one dollar bill...there are four of them, you get a total
of 6...the number of man...ad reductum from 666 the number of the beast.

Allegedly it is not George Washington but rather the man who founded not only
the Masons in America but also the KKK Albert Pike (is that his name??? I
forget!)