From tyagi@kudonet.com  Sat Nov 23 14:21:06 1996
Return-Path: tyagi@kudonet.com
Received: from kudonet.com (kudonet.com [165.227.52.1]) by bitsy.hollyfeld.org (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA04087 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 14:21:01 -0500
Received: from kudo20.kudonet.com by kudonet.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id LAA02194; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 11:09:29 -0800
Received: by kudo20.kudonet.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id LAA17417; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 11:01:52 -0800
From: tyagi@kudonet.com (Tyagi Nagasiva)
Message-Id: <199611231901.LAA17417@kudo20.kudonet.com>
Subject: Enochia/9611.deediar.tn
To: tyagi@hollyfeld.org
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 11:01:51 -0800 (PST)
Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8b]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Status: O


>From enochian-l-owner@hollyfeld.org  Fri Nov 22 10:40:11 1996
X-Authentication-Warning: bitsy.hollyfeld.org: majordom set sender to owner-enochian-l using -f
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 96 13:18 EST
Message-Id: <2.2.16.19961122131710.132fddc4@megalinx.net>
X-Sender: browe@megalinx.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: enochian-l@hollyfeld.org
From: Josh Norton 
Subject: Re: Are the angels real?
Sender: owner-enochian-l@hollyfeld.org
Precedence: bulk
content-length: 2418

At 11:39 AM 11/21/96 -0800, nocTifer wrote:
>
>Josh Norton :
>#...I can't think of any modern novelist (with the
>#possible exception of James Joyce) who could put together the entire seven
>#years worth of diaries deliberately. 
>
>to which diaries do you refer?  I've not yet seen them.

I thought this would have been clear from previous posts here, but...

Dee kept a session-by-session transcript of all their dealings with the
angels, hundreds of pages worth of highly detailed records in eight or nine
books. This included a verbatim record of everything said by the angels,
Kelly's reports of what he saw in the shewstone, things they both witnessed
(e.g. the miraculous appearance of a new shewstone given by the angels), and
details of D&K's discussions and personal problems that related to the
operations. There is so much detail that the idea of deliberate fabrication
seems to me to lack any sort of credibility.

Large portions of the diaries have been published. Meric Casaubon's _A True
and Faithful Relation_ contains the portion related to the Calls and
Tablets, and is still available in a facsimile edition. Joseph Peterson's
edition of Dee's _Mysteriorum Libri Quinti_ details the earlier Heptarchic
magickal system and the start of _Liber Logaeth_. Suggest you acquire and
read them for yourself before talking any more about alternate paradigms.

>#What prestige? I think you are invalidly reasoning backwards from Dee's
>#current reputation to his reputation during his lifetime. He was very much a
>#secondary character in Elizabethan society. If I were looking for
>#prestigious occult connections in those days, ....
>
>I meant something on the order of 'making a mark in history'.  something
>not resulting in immediate response but putting one into the recorded
>history of occultism as a master magician.

I don't see how Kelly could possibly have known that Dee would have a
reputation as a magician in later centuries. Or are you crediting him with
the ability to foresee the future? The records of the operations weren't
publicly available until sixty years after Kelly's death, and most of them
only surfaced by sheer chance. In Kelly's time, there was no reason to think
that they would ever become public knowledge.

Ben



------------------------
Reality leaves a lot to the imagination. -- John Lennon

Josh Norton (aka Benjamin Rowe) -- browe@megalinx.net

----- End of forwarded message from Josh Norton -----

Disclaimer: The file contained in the box above or displayed in a separate window from a link in the box above is NOT owned nor implied to be owned by BeYoND THe iLLuSioN. Most files at BeYoND THe iLLuSioN are originally from public Bulletin Board Systems (BBS) which were popular in the days before the Internet or from gopher, web, and FTP sites from the early days of the Internet which no longer exist today. Essentially, all files were acquired from the public domain in one for or another.

However, there have been occasions when copyright protected material has appeared on BeYoND THe iLLuSIoN without permission of the copyright holder. In these instances, we have and will continue to remove the copyright protected file as soon as it is brought to our attention. This can now be done using our Report Copyright Material form. Fill out the form, and the webmaster will be notified of the situation.

There are also times when files found on BeYoND THe iLLuSioN have a real home somewhere else on the Internet. In these instances, we will gladly replace the file with a link to its true home whenever it is brought to our attention. If you know of the true home of any of these files, you can use our Report Original URL form to bring it yo our attention.