Hypnosis In MPD:  Ritual Abuse
                      D. Corydon Hammond, Ph.D.

                       "The Greenbaum Speech"

Herein is the lecture by D.C. Hammond, originally entitled
"Hypnosis in MPD:  Ritual Abuse," but now usually known as the
"Greenbaum Speech," delivered at the Fourth Annual Eastern
Regional Conference on Abuse and Multiple Personality Disorder
(MPD), Thursday June 25, 1992, at the Radisson Plaza Hotel, Mark
Center, Alexandria, Virginia.  Sponsored by the Center for Abuse
Recovery & Empowerment, The Psychiatric Institute of Washington,
D.C.  Both a tape and a transcript were at one time available
from Audio Transcripts of Alexandria, Virginia (800-338-2111).
Tapes and transcripts of other sessions from the conference are
still being sold, but -- understandably -- not this one.  The
transcript below was made from a privately made tape of the
original lecture.

The single most remarkable thing about this speech is how little
one has heard of it in the two years since its original delivery.
It is recommended that one reads far enough at least until one
finds why it's called "the Greenbaum speech."

In the introduction the following background information is given
for
                        D. Corydon Hammond:

B.S., M.S., Ph.D. (Counseling Psychology) from the University of
     Utah.
Diplomate in Clinical Hypnosis, the American Board of
     Psychological Hypnosis.
Diplomate in Sex Therapy, the American Board of Sexology.
Clinical Supervisor and Board Examiner, American Board of
     Sexology.
Diplomate in Marital and Sex Therapy, American Board of Family
     Psychology.
Licensed Psychologist, Licensed Marital Therapist, Licensed
     Family Therapist, State of Utah.
Research Associate Professor of Physical Medicine an
     Rehabilitation, Utah School of Medicine.
Director and Founder of the Sex and Marital Therapy Clinic,
     University of Utah.
Adjunct Associate Professor of Educational Psychology, University
     of Utah Abstract.
Editor, The American Journal of Clinical Hypnosis.
Advising Editor and Founding Member, Editorial Board, The
     Ericsonian Monograph.
Referee, The Journal of Abnormal Psychology.
1989 Presidential Award of Merit, American Society of Clinical
     Hypnosis.
1990 Urban Sector Award, American Society of Clinical Hypnosis.
Current President, American Society of Clinical Hypnosis.

                      D. Corydon Hammond, Ph.D.
                       "The Greenbaum Speech"

We've got a lot to cover today and let me give you a rough
approximate outline of the things that I'd like us to get into.
First, let me ask how many of you have had at least one course or
workshop on hypnosis?  Can I see the hands?  Wonderful.  That
makes our job easier.
     Okay.  I want to start off by talking a little about trance-
training and the use of hypnotic phenomena with an MPD
dissociative-disorder population, to talk some about unconscious
exploration, methods of doing that, the use of imagery and
symbolic imagery techniques for managing physical symptoms, input
overload, things like that.  Before the day's out, I want to
spend some time talking about something I think has been
completely neglected in the field of dissociative disorders, and
that's talking about methods of profound calming for automatic
hyper-arousal that's been conditioned in these patients.  We're
going to spend a considerable length of time talking about age-
regression and abreaction in working through a trauma.  I'll show
you with a non-MPD patient -- some of that kind of work -- and
then extrapolate from what I find so similar and different with
MPD cases.  Part of that, I would add, by the way, is that I've
been very sensitive through the years about taping MPD cases or
ritual-abuse cases, part of it being that some of that feels a
little like using patients and I think that this population has
been used enough.  That's part of the reason, by choice, that I
don't generally videotape my work.  I also want to talk a bunch
about hypnotic relapse-prevention strategies and post-integration
therapy today.  Finally, I hope to find somewhere in our time-
frame to spend on hour or so talking specifically about ritual
abuse and about mind-control programming and brainwashing -- how
it's done, how to get on the inside with that -- which is a topic
that in the past I haven't been willing to speak about publicly,
have done that in small groups and in consultations, but recently
decided that it was high time that somebody started doing it.  So
we're going to talk about specifics today.  [Applause]

     In Chicago at the first international congress where ritual
abuse was talked about I can remember thinking, "How strange and
interesting."  I can recall many people listening to an example
given that somebody thought was so idiosyncratic and rare, and
all the people coming up after saying, "Gee, you're treating one,
too?  You're in Seattle" ... Well, I'm in Toronto ... Well, I'm
in Florida ... Well, I'm in Cincinnati."  I didn't know what to
think at that point.  It wasn't too long after that I found my
first ritual-abuse patient in somebody I was already treating and
we hadn't gotten that deep yet.  Things in that case made me very
curious about the use of mind-control techniques and hypnosis and
other brainwashing techniques.  So I started studying
brainwashing and some of the literature in that area and became
acquainted with, in fact, one of the people who'd written one of
the better books in that area.  Then I decided to do a survey,
and from the ISSMP&D [International Society for the Study of
Multiple Personality and Dissociation] folks I picked out about a
dozen and a half therapists that I thought were seeing more of
that than probably anyone else around and I started surveying
them.  The interview protocol that I had, got the same reaction
almost without exception.  Those therapists said, "You're asking
questions I don't know the answers to.  You're asking more
specific questions than I've ever asked my patients."  Many of
those same therapists said, "Let me ask those questions and I'll
get back to you with the answer."  Many of them not only got back
with answers, but said, "You've got to talk to this patient or
these two patients."  I ended up doing hundred of dollars worth
of telephone interviewing.  What I came out of that with was a
grasp of a variety of brainwashing methods being used all over
the country.  I started to hear some similarities.  Whereas I
hadn't known, to begin with, how widespread these things were, I
was now getting a feeling that there were a lot of people
reporting some similar things and that there must be some degree
of communication here.
     Then approximately two and a half years ago I had some
material drop in my lap.  My source was saying a lot of things
that I knew were accurate about some of the brainwashing, but it
was telling me new material I had no idea about.  At this point I
took [note] and decided to check it out in three ritual-abuse
patients I was seeing at the time.  Two of the three had what
they were describing, in careful inquiry without leading or
contaminating.  The fascinating thing was that as I did a
telephone consult with a therapist that I'd been consulting with
for quite a number of months on an MPD case in another state, I
told her to inquire about certain things.  She said, "Well, what
are those things?"  I said, "I'm not going to tell you, because I
don't want there to be any possibility of contamination.  Just
come back to me and tell me what the patient says."  She called
me back two hours later, said, "I just had a double session with
this patient and there was a part of him that said, 'Oh, we're so
excited.  If you know about this stuff, you know how the Cult
Programmers get on the inside and our therapy is going to go so
much faster.'"  Many other patients since, have had a reaction of
wanting to pee their pants out of anxiety and fear rather than
thinking it was a wonderful thing.  But the interesting thing was
that she then asked, "What are these things?"  They were word
perfect -- same answers my source had given me.  I've since
repeated that in many parts of the country.  I've consulted in
eleven states and one foreign country, in some cases over the
telephone, in some cases in person, in some cases giving the
therapist information ahead of time and saying, "Be very careful
how you phrase this.  Phrase it in these ways so you don't
contaminate."  In other cases not even giving the therapist
information ahead of time so they couldn't.  When you start to
find the same highly esoteric information in different states and
different countries, from Florida to California, you start to get
an idea that there's something going on that is very large, very
well coordinated, with a great deal of communication and
systematicness to what's happening.
     So I have gone from someone kind of neutral and not knowing
what to think about it all, to someone who clearly believes
ritual abuse is real and that the people who say it isn't are
either naive like people who didn't want to believe the Holocaust
or -- they're dirty.  [Applause]

     Now for a long time I would tell a select group of
therapists that I knew and trusted, information and say, "Spread
it out.  Don't spread my name.  Don't say where it came from.
But here's some information.  Share it with other therapists if
you find it's on target, and I'd appreciate your feedback."
People would question -- in talks -- and say, you know, they were
hungry for information.  Myself, as well as a few others that
I've shared it with, were hedging out of concern and out of
personal threats and out of death threats.  I finally decided to
hell with them.  If they're going to kill me, they're going to
kill me.  It's time to share more information with therapists.
Part of that comes because we proceeded so cautiously and slowly,
checking things in many different locations and find the same
thing.
     So I'm going to give you the way in, with ritual-abuse
programming.  I certainly can't tell you everything that you want
to know in forty-five or fifty minutes, but I'm going to give you
the essentials to get inside and start working at a new level.  I
don't know what proportion, honestly, of patients have this.  I
would guess that maybe somewhere around at least fifty percent,
maybe as high as three-quarters, I would guess maybe two-thirds
of your ritual-abuse patients may have this.
     What do I think the distinguishing characteristic is?  If
they were raised from birth in a mainstream cult or if they were
an non-bloodline person, meaning neither parent was in the Cult,
but Cult people had a lot of access to them in early childhood,
they may also have it.  I have seen more than one ritual-abuse
patient who clearly had all the kind of ritual things you hear
about.  They seemed very genuine.  They talked about all the
typical things that you hear in this population, but had none of
this programming with prolonged extensive checking.  So I believe
in one case I was personally treating that she was a kind of
schismatic break-off that had kind of gone off and done their own
thing and were no longer hooked into a mainstream group.  [Pause]

     Here's where it appears to have come from.  At the end of
World War II, before it even ended, Allen Dulles and people from
our Intelligence Community were already in Switzerland making
contact to get out Nazi scientists.  As World War II ends, they
not only get out rocket scientists, but they also get out some
Nazi doctors who have been doing mind-control research in the
camps.
     They brought them to the United States.  Along with them was
a young boy, a teenager, who had been raised in a Hasidic Jewish
tradition and a background of Cabalistic mysticism, that probably
appealed to people in the Cult, because at least by the turn of
the century Aleister Crowley had been introducing Cabalism into
Satanic stuff, if not earlier.  I suspect it may have formed some
bond between them.  But he saved his skin by collaborating and
being an assistant to them in the death-camp experiments.  They
brought him with them.  They started doing mind-control research
for Military Intelligence in military hospitals in the United
States.  The people that came, the Nazi doctors, were Satanists.
Subsequently, the boy changed his name, Americanized it some,
obtained an M.D. degree, became a physician and continued this
work that appears to be at the center of Cult Programming today.
His name is known to patients throughout the country.  [Pause]

     What they basically do is they will get a child and they
will start this, in basic forms, it appears, by about two and a
half after the child's already been made dissociative.  They'll
make him dissociative not only through abuse, like sexual abuse,
but also things like putting a mousetrap on their fingers and
teaching the parents, "You do not go in until the child stops
crying.  Only then do you go in and remove it."  They start in
rudimentary forms at about two and a half and kick into high
gear, it appears, around six or six and a half, continue through
adolescence with periodic reinforcements in adulthood.
Basically, in the programming the child will be put typically on
a gurney.  They will have an IV in one hand or arm.  They'll be
strapped down, typically naked.  There'll be wires attached to
their head to monitor electroencephalograph patterns.  They will
see a pulsing light, most often described as red, occasionally
white or blue.  They'll be given, most commonly I believe,
Demerol.  Sometimes it'll be other drugs as well depending on the
kind of programming.  They have it, I think, down to a science
where they've learned, you give so much every twenty-five minutes
until the programming is done.  They then will describe a pain on
one ear, their right ear generally, where it appears a needle has
been placed, and they will hear weird, disorienting sounds in
that ear while they see photic stimulation to drive the brain
into a brain wave pattern with a pulsing light at a certain
frequency, not unlike the goggles that are now available through
Sharper Image and some of those kinds of stores.  Then, after a
suitable period when they're in a certain brain wave state, they
will begin programming, programming oriented to self-destruction
and debasement of the person.  In a patient at this point in
time, about eight years old, who has gone through a great deal of
early programming that took place on a military installation,
that's not uncommon.  I've treated and been involved with cases
who are part of this original mind-control project, as well as
having their programming on military reservations in many cases.
We find a lot of connections with the CIA.
     This patient now was in a Cult school, a private Cult school
where several of these sessions occurred a week.  She would go
into a room, get all hooked up.  They would do all of these sorts
of things.  When she was in the proper altered state, now they
were no longer having to monitor it with electroencephalographs,
she also had already had placed on her electrodes, one in the
vagina, for example, four on the head.  Sometimes they'll be on
other parts of the body.  They will then begin and they would say
to her, "You are angry with someone in the group."  She'd say,
"No, I'm not" and they'd violently shock her.  They would say the
same thing until she complied and didn't make any negative
response.  Then they would continue.  "And because you are angry
with someone in the group," or "When you are angry with someone
in the group, you will hurt yourself.  Do you understand?"  She
said, "No" and they shocked her.  They repeated again, "Do you
understand?"  "Well, yes, but I don't want to."  Shock her again
until they get compliance.  Then they keep adding to it.  "And
you will hurt yourself by cutting yourself.  Do you understand?"
Maybe she'd say yes, but they might say, "We don't believe you"
and shock her anyway.  "Go back and go over it again."  They
would continue in this sort of fashion.  She said typically it
seemed as though they'd go about thirty minutes, take a break for
a smoke or something, come back.  They may review what they'd
done and stopped, or they might review what they'd done and go on
to new material.
     She said the sessions might go half an hour, they might go
three hours.  She estimated three times a week.  Programming
under the influence of drugs in a certain brain wave state and
with these noises in one ear and them speaking in the other ear,
usually the left ear, associated with right hemisphere non-
dominant brain functioning, and with them talking, therefore, and
requiring intense concentration, intense focusing.  Because often
they'll have to memorize and say certain things back, word-
perfect, to avoid punishment, shock, and other kinds of things
that are occurring.  This is basically how a lot of programming
goes on.  Some of it'll also use other typical brainwashing kinds
of techniques.  There will be very standardized types of hypnotic
things done at times.  There'll be sensory deprivation which we
know increases suggestibility in anyone.  Total sensory
deprivation, suggestibility has significantly increased, from the
research.  It's not uncommon for them to use a great deal of
that, including formal sensory-deprivation chambers before they
do certain of these things.  [Pause]

     Now let me give you, because we don't have a lot of time, as
much practical information as I can.  The way that I would
inquire as to whether or not some of this might be there would be
with ideomotor finger-signals.  After you've set them up I would
say, "I want the central inner core of you to take control of the
finger-signals."  Don't ask the unconscious mind.  The case where
you're inquiring about ritual abuse, that's for the central inner
core.  The core is a Cult-created part.  "And I want that central
inner core of you to take control of this hand, of these finger-
signals and what it has to do for the yes-finger to float up.  I
want to ask the inner core of you is there any part of you, any
part of Mary," that's the host's name, "who knows anything about
Alpha, Beta, Delta, or Theta?"  If you get a Yes, it should raise
a red flag that you might have someone with formal intensive
brainwashing and programming in place.  I would then ask and say,
"I want a part inside who knows something about Alpha, Beta,
Delta, and Theta to come up to a level where you can speak to me
and when you're here say, 'I'm here.'"  I would not ask if a part
was willing to.  No one's going to particularly want to talk
about this.  I would just say, "I want some part who can tell me
about this to come out."  Without leading them ask them what
these things are.  I've had consults where I've come in.
Sometimes I've gotten a Yes to that, but as I've done exploration
it appeared to be some kind of compliance response or somebody
wanting, in two or three cases, to appear maybe that they were
ritual abuse and maybe they were in some way, but with careful
inquiry and looking it was obvious that they did not have what we
were looking for.
     Let me tell you what these are.  Let's suppose that this
whole front row here are multiples and that she has an alter
named Helen and she has one named Mary, she has one named
Gertrude, she has one named Elizabeth, and she has one named
Monica.  Every one of those alters may have put on it a program,
perhaps designated alpha-zero-zero-nine a Cult person could say,
"Alpha-zero-zero-nine" or make some kind of hand gesture to
indicate this and get the same part out in any one of them even
though they had different names that they may be known by to you.
Alphas appear to represent general programming, the first kind of
things put in.  Betas appear to be sexual programs.  For example,
how to perform oral sex in a certain way, how to perform sex in
rituals, having to do with producing child pornography, directing
child pornography, or prostitution.  Deltas are killers trained
in how to kill in ceremonies.  There'll also be some self-harm
stuff mixed in with that, assassination and killing.  Thetas are
called psychic killers.  You know, I had never in my life heard
those two terms paired together.  I'd never heard the words
"psychic killers" put together, but when you have people in
different states, including therapists inquiring and asking,
"What is Theta," and patients say to them, "Psychic killers," it
tends to make one a believer that certain things are very
systematic and very widespread.  This comes from their belief in
psychic sorts of abilities and powers, including their ability to
psychically communicate with "mother", including their ability to
psychically cause somebody to develop a brain aneurysm and die.
It also is a more future-oriented kind of programming.  Then
there's Omega.  I usually don't include that word when I say my
first question about this or any part inside that knows about
Alpha, Beta, Delta, Theta, because Omega will shake them even
more.  Omega has to do with self-destruct programming.  Alpha and
Omega, the beginning and the end.  This can include self-
mutilation as well as killing-themselves programming.  Gamma
appears to be system-protection and deception programming which
will provide misinformation to you, try to misdirect you, tell
you half-truths, protect different things inside.  There can also
be other Greek letters.
     I'd recommend that you go and get your entire Greek
alphabet, and if you have verified that some of this stuff is
present and they have given you some of the right answers about
what some of this material is, and I can't underline enough:  DO
NOT LEAD THEM.  Do not say, "Is this killers?"  Get the answer
from them, please.  When you've done this and it appears to be
present, I would take your entire Greek alphabet, and with
ideomotor signals, go through the alphabet and say, "Is there any
programming inside associated with epsilon, omicron," and go on
through.  There may be some systematicness to some of the other
letters, but I'm not aware of it.  I've found, for example, in
one case that Zeta had to do with the production of snuff films
that this person was involved with.  With another person, Omicron
had to do with their linkage and associations with drug smuggling
and with the Mafia, and with big business and government leaders.
So there's going to be some individualism, I think, in some of
those.  Some of those are come-home programs, "come back to the
Cult", "return to the Cult" program.
     Here's the flaw in the system.  They have built in shut-down
and erasure codes, so if they got into trouble they could shut
something down and they could also erase something.  These codes
will sometimes be idiosyncratic phrases, or ditties.  Sometimes
they will be numbers maybe followed by a word.  There's some real
individuality to that.  At first I had hoped if we can get some
of these maybe they'll work with different people.  No such luck.
It's very unlikely, unless they were programmed at about the same
point in time as part of the same little group.  Stuff that I've
seen suggests that they carry laptop computers, the programmers,
which still include everything that they did twenty or thirty
years ago in them, in terms of the names of alters, the programs,
the codes, and so on.  Now what you can do is get erasure codes,
and I always ask, "If I say this code, what will happen?"  Double
check.  "Is there any part inside who has different information?"
Watch your ideomotor signals and what I've found is you can erase
programs by giving the appropriate codes, but then you must
abreact the feelings.  So if you erase Omega, which is often
where I've started because it's the most high risk.  Afterwards I
will get all the Omega, what were formerly Omega alters, together
so that we will abreact and give back to the host the memories
associated with all the programming that was done with Omega and
anything any Omega part ever had to do in a fractionated
abreaction.  They use the metaphor -- and it is their metaphor --
of robots, and it is like a robot shell comes down over the child
alter to make them act in robotic fashion.  Once in a while
internally you'll confront robots.
     What I found from earlier work, and so I speed the process
up now because I confirmed it enough times, is that you can say
to the core, "Core, I want you to look -- there's this robot
blocking the way in some way, blocking the progress.  Go around
and look at the back of the head and tell me what you notice on
the back of the head or the neck."  I just ask it very non-
leading, like that, and what's commonly said to me is that there
were wires or a switch.  So I'll tell them, "Hold the wires or
flip the switch and it will immobilize the robot and give me a
yes-signal when you've done it."  Pretty soon you get a yes-
signal.  "Great.  Now that the robot is immobilized, I want you
to look inside the robot and tell me what you see."  It's
generally one or several children.  I have them remove the
children.  I do a little hypnotic magic and ask the core to use a
laser and vaporize the robot so nothing is left.  They're usually
quite amazed that this works, as have been a number of
therapists.  [Pause]

     Now there are many different layers of this stuff is the
problem.  Let me come over to the overhead and give some ideas
about them.  What we have up here are innumerable alters.  I'll
tell you one of the fascinating things I've seen.  I remember a
little over a year ago coming in to see some cases, some of the
tough cases at a dissociative-disorders unit of a couple of the
finest of the MPD therapists in this country, who are always part
of all the international meetings, and have lectured
internationally.  We worked and I looked at some of their
patients.  They were amazed at certain things because they had
not been aware of this before, as we worked with some of the
patients and confirmed it.  I remember one woman who'd been
inpatient for three years, still was inpatient.  Another who had
one intensive year of inpatient work with all the finest MPD
therapy you can imagine -- abreactions, integrations,
facilitating cooperation, art therapy, on and on and on,
journaling, intensively for one inpatient year, followed by an
intensive year of outpatient therapy, two or three hours a week.
In both patients we found out that all of this great work had
done nothing but deal with the alters up here, and had not
touched the mind-control programming.  In fact it was not only
intact, but we found that the one who was outpatient was having
her therapy monitored every session by her mother, out-of-state,
over the telephone, and that she still had intact suggestions
that had been give to her, at a certain future time to kill her
therapist.
     Now one of the things that I would very carefully check is,
I would suggest that you ask the core, not just the unconscious
mind, ask the core, "Is there any part inside that continues to
have contact with people associated with the Cult?  Is there any
part inside who goes to Cult rituals or meetings?  Is there a
recording device inside of Mary," if that's the host's name, "a
recording device inside so that someone can find out the things
that are said in sessions?"  This doesn't mean they're monitored.
Many of them just simply have it.  "Is there someone who debriefs
some part inside for what happens in our therapy sessions?"  I
have the very uncomfortable feeling from some past experience
that when you look at this you will find the large proportion of
ritual-abuse victims in this country are having their ongoing
therapy monitored.
     I remember a woman who came in, about twenty-four years old,
claimed her father was a Satanist.  Her parents divorced when she
was six.  After that, it would only be when her father had
visitation and he would take her to rituals sometimes, up until
age fifteen.  She said, "I haven't gone to anything since I was
fifteen."  Her therapist believed this at face value.  We sat in
my office.  We did a two-hour inquiry using hypnosis.  We found
the programming present.  In addition to that we found that every
therapy session was debriefed, and in fact they had told her to
get sick and not come to the appointment with me.  Another one
had been told that I was Cult and that if she came I would know
that she'd been told not to come and I would punish her.  If
anything meaningful comes out in a patient who's being monitored
like that -- from what I've learned thus far, they're tortured
with electric shocks -- my belief is if they're in that situation
you can't do meaningful therapy other than being supportive and
caring, and letting them know you care a lot and you'll be there
to support them.  But I wouldn't try to work with any kind of
deep material or deprogramming with them, because I think it can
do nothing but get them tortured and hurt, unless they can get
into a safe, secure inpatient unit for an extended period of time
to do some of the work required.  I have a feeling that when you
make inquiries you're going to find that probably greater than
fifty percent of these patients, if they're bloodline, meaning
mother or dad or both involved, will be monitored on some ongoing
basis.  [Pause]

     Now when you come below the alters, you then have Alpha,
Beta, Delta, Theta, so and so forth, the Greek-letter
programming, and they will then have backup programs.  There will
typically be an erasure code for the backups.  There may be one
code that combines all the backups into one and then an erasure
code for them, simply one code that erases all the backups.  So I
will get the code for, let's say, Omega and for all the Omega
backups at the same time.  After I've asked "What will happen if
I give this," I will give the code and then I will say, "What are
you experiencing?"  They often describe computer whirring, things
erasing, explosions inside, all sorts of interesting things.
I've had some therapists come back and say, "My Lord, I had never
said anything about robots and she said something about robots
vaporizing."  I remember one therapist who'd been with me in
several hypnosis workshops and consulted with me about a crisis
MPD situation.  I told her to inquire about Alpha, Beta, Delta,
Theta.  She did.  She got back to me saying, "Yeah, I got an
indication it's there.  What is it?"  I said, "I'm not going to
tell you.  Go back and inquire about some of this."  We set an
appointment for a week or so hence.  She got back with me and
said, "I asked what Theta was and she said, 'psychic killers.'  I
asked her what Delta was and she said 'killers.'"  Okay.  So I
told her about some of this stuff for a two-hour consult.  She
called back and she said, "This seemed too fantastic.  I heard
this and I thought, 'Has Cory been working too hard?'"  She said,
I'm embarrassed to admit it, but she said, "I held you in high
professional regard, but this just sounded so off in the twilight
zone that I really thought, 'Is he having a nervous breakdown or
something?'"  She said, "But I respected you enough to ask about
this."  She said, "I asked another MPD patient and she didn't
have any of this."  So in this patient she started describing
things and how she worked, for example, with an erasure and she
was describing things like robots vaporizing and kinds of things.
She said, "I hadn't told her about any of these things."  Well,
here's the problem.  There are different layers and I think some
of them are designed to keep us going in circles forever.  They
figured we probably, in most cases, wouldn't get below the alters
which they purposefully created.
     The way you create Manchurian Candidates is you divide the
mind.  It's part of what the Intelligence Community wanted to
look at.  If you're going to get an assassin, you're going to get
somebody to go do something, you divide the mind.  It fascinates
me about cases like the assassination of Robert Kennedy, where
Bernard Diamond, on examining Sirhan Sirhan found that he had
total amnesia of the killing of Robert Kennedy, but under
hypnosis could remember it.  But despite suggestions he would be
able to consciously remember, could not remember a thing after
was out of hypnosis.  I'd love to examine Sirhan Sirhan.
     It appears that below this we've got some other layers.  One
is called "Green Programming" it appears.  Isn't it interesting
that the doctor's name is Dr. Green?  One of the questions, in a
way that does not contaminate, is after I've identified some of
this stuff is there and they've given me a few right answers
about what some of it is, "If there were a doctor associated with
this programming and his name were a color, you know, like Dr.
Chartreuse or something, if his name were a color, what color
would the color be?"  Now once in a while I've had some other
colors mentioned, in about three or four patients that I felt
were trying to dissimulate in some way and I don't really believe
had this.  In one case I got another color and I found out later
it was a doctor whose name was a color who was being trained by
Dr. Green, almost thirty years ago, and he supervised part of the
programming of this woman under this doctor.  I remember one
woman couldn't come up with anything.  No alter would speak up
with anything.  I said, "Okay," and we went on to some other
material.  About two minutes later she said, "Green, do you mean
Dr. Green?"  We found this all over.  There appears to be some
Green Programming below that, and I suspect that you get down to
fewer and more central programs the deeper you go.  Well, all
Green Programming is Ultra-Green and the Green Tree.
     Cabalistic mysticism is mixed all into this.  If you're
going to work with this you need to pick up a couple of books on
the Cabala.  One is by a man named Dion Fortune called "Qabala"
with a "q," Dion Fortune.  Another one is by Ann Williams-Heller
and it's called "The Kabbalah."  I knew nothing about the Cabala.
It was interesting.  A patient had sat in my waiting area, got
there considerably early and drew a detailed multicolored
Cabalistic Tree over two years ago.  It took me two months to
figure out what it was.  Finally, showing it to somebody else who
said, "You know?  That looks an awful lot like the Cabala Tree."
And that rang a bell with something esoteric in an old book and I
dug it out.  That was the background of Dr. Green.
     Now the interesting thing about the Green Tree is his
original name was Greenbaum.  What does "greenbaum" mean in
German?  Green Tree, Ultra-Tree and the Green Tree.  I've also
had patients who didn't appear to know that his original name was
Greenbaum, volunteered that there were parts inside named Mr.
Greenbaum.
     Now let me give you some information about parts inside that
may be helpful to you if you're going to inquire about these
things.  Because my experience is, one part will give you some
information and either run dry or get defensive or scared and
stop, and so you punt and you make an end run and you come around
the other direction, you find another part.  I'll tell you
several parts to ask for and ask if there's a part by this name.
And, by the way, when I'm screening patients and fiddling around
with this, I throw in a bunch of spurious ones and ask, "Is there
a part inside by this name and by that name" as a check on
whether or not it appears genuine.  For example, "In addition to
the core," I ask, "is there a part inside named Wisdom?"  Wisdom
is a part of the Cabalistic Tree.  Wisdom, I've often found, will
be helpful and give you a lot of information.  "Is there a part
inside named Diana?"  I mean I may throw in all sorts of things.
"Is there a part inside named Zelda?"  I've never encountered one
yet! Just to see what kind of answers we get.  I try to do this
carefully.
     Diana is a part that, in the Cabalistic system, is
associated with a part called the Foundation.  You will be
fascinated to know that.  Remember the Process Church?  Roman
Polanski's wife, Sharon Tate, was killed by the Manson Family who
were associated with the Process Church?  A lot of prominent
people in Hollywood were associated and then they went
underground, the books say, in about seventy-eight and vanished?
Well, they're alive and well in southern Utah.  We have a thick
file in the Utah Department of Public Safety documenting that
they moved to southern Utah, north of Monument Valley, bought a
movie ranch in the desert, renovated it, expanded it, built a
bunch of buildings there, carefully monitored so that very few
people go out of there and no one can get in, and changed their
name.  A key word in their name is "Foundation."  The Foundation.
There are some other words.  The Foundation is part of the Tree.
So you can ask, "Is there something inside known as The
Foundation?"
     I might ask other things to throw people off.  "Is there
something known as the Sub-Basement?"  Well, maybe they'll
conceive of something.  Or "Is there something known as the
Walls?"  There are a variety of questions you can come up with,
to sort of screen some things.
     I've also found that there will often be a part called
"Black Master," a part called "Master Programmer," and that there
will be computer operators inside.  How many of you have come
into computer things in patients?  There will typically be
computer operators:  Computer Operator Black, Computer Operator
Green, Computer Operator Purple.  Sometimes they'll have numbers
instead, sometimes they'll be called Systems Information
Directors.  You can find out the head one of those.  There'll be
a source of some information for you.  I will ask inside, "Is
there a part inside named Dr. Green?"  You'll find that there
are, if they have this kind of programming, in my experience.
Usually with a little work and reframing, you can turn them and
help them to realize that they were really a child-part, who's
playing a role and they had no choice then, but they do now.  You
know, they played their role very, very well, but they don't have
to continue to play it with you, because they're safe here.  And
in fact, "If the Cult simply found out that you talked to me,
that they know you had shared information with me, you tell me
what would they do to you?"  Emphasize that the only way out is
through me and that they need to cooperate and share information
and help me and that I'll help them.  So all these parts can give
you various information.
     Now they have tried to protect this very carefully.  Let me
give you an example with Ultra-Green.  I discovered this -- by
the way I used to think this programming was only in bloodline
people.  I've discovered it in non-bloodline people, but it's a
bit different.  They don't want it to be just the same.  I don't
think you'll find deep things like Ultra-Green and probably not
even Green Programming with non-bloodline people.  But let me
tell you something that I discovered first in a non-bloodline and
then in a bloodline.  We were going along and a patient was close
to getting well, approaching final integration in a non-bloodline
and she suddenly started hallucinating and her fingers were
becoming hammers and other things like that.  So I used an
affect-bridge and we went back and we found that what happened
was that they gave suggestions, that if she ever got well to a
certain point she would go crazy.  The way they did this was they
strapped her down and they gave her LSD when she was eight years
old.  When she began hallucinating they inquired about the nature
of the hallucinations, so they could utilize them in good
Ericsonian fashion, and build on them and then combine the drug-
effect with powerful suggestions.  "If you ever get to this point
you will go crazy.  If you ever get fully integrated and get well
you will go crazy like this, and will be locked up in an
institution for the rest of your life."  They gave those
suggestions vigorously and repetitively.  Finally they introduced
other suggestions that, "Rather than have this happen, it would
be easier to just kill yourself."  In a bloodline patient then,
as I began inquiring about deep material, the patient started to
experience similar symptoms.  We went back and we found the
identical things were done to her.
     This was called the "Green Bomb."  B-O-M-B.  Lots of
interesting internal consistencies like that, play on words with
Dr. Greenbaum, his original name.  Now in this case it was done
to her at age nine for the first time, and then only hers was
different.  Hers was a suggestion for amnesia.  "If you ever
remember anything about Ultra-Green and the Green Tree you will
go crazy.  You will become a vegetable and be locked up forever."
Then finally the suggestions added, "And it'll be easier to just
kill yourself than have that happen to you, if you ever remember
it."  At age twelve then, three years later, they used what
sounds like an Amytal interview to try to breach the amnesia and
find out if they could.  They couldn't.  So then they strapped
her down again, took and gave her something to kind of paralyze
her body, gave her LSD, an even bigger dose and reinforced all
the suggestions.  Did a similar thing at the age of sixteen.  So
these are some of the kind of booby traps you run into.  There
are a number of cases where they combined powerful drug effects
like this with suggestions, to keep us from discovering some of
this deeper level stuff.
     What's the bottom?  Your guess is as good as mine, but I can
tell you that I've had a lot of therapists who were stymied with
these cases who were going nowhere.  In fact someone here that I
told some basic information about this to, in Ohio a couple of
months ago, said it opened all sorts of things up in a patient
who'd been going nowhere.  That's an often common thing.  I think
that we can move down to deeper levels and if we deal with some
of the deeper level stuff it may destroy all the stuff above it.
But we don't even know that yet.
     In some of the patients I'm working with we have pretty much
dealt with a lot of the top-level stuff.  I'll tell you how we've
done some of that.  We'll take and erase one system like Omega.
Then we will have a huge abreaction of all the memories and
feelings in a fractionated abreaction associated with those
parts.  I typically find I'll say to them, "Now that we've done
this, are there any other memories and feelings that any parts
that were Omega still have?"  The answer's usually "No."  At that
point I will say, "I usually find at this point in time the
majority, if not all, of those parts that used to be Omega no
longer feel a desire or need to be different, realizing that you
split off originally by them and want to go home to Mary and
become one with her again."  I use the concept often now -- which
came from a patient -- of going home and becoming one with her.
"Going back from whence you came" is another phrase I'll use with
them.  "Are there any Omega parts inside who do not feel
comfortable with that or have reservations or concerns about
that?"  If there are we talk to them.  We deal with them.  A few
may not integrate.  My experience is most of the time they'll
integrate and we may integrate twenty-five parts at once in a
polyfragmented complex MPD.
     I think it is vitally important to abreact the feelings
before you go on.  Also for many patients it hasn't seemed to
matter the order we go in, but I've found a couple where it has.
If it doesn't seem to matter I'll typically go Omega, then Delta,
because they have more violence potential, then Gamma to get rid
of the self-deception stuff.  What I will do before I just assume
anything and do that, is once we've done Omega and showed them
that success can occur and something can happen and they feel
relief after, I will say to them, "I want to ask the core --
through the fingers -- is there a specific order in which
programs must be erased?"  You know maybe it doesn't matter, but
most of the time I found "No."  There are cases where we found
"Yes."  I recommend doing one or two or three of those because
they'll produce relief and a sense of optimism in the patient.
But then I would recommend starting to probe for the deeper level
things and getting their input and recommendations about the
order in which we go.
     Question?

     Q:  What has been the typical age and typical gender of this
type of person?

     Dr. H:  I know of this being found in men and women.  Most
of the patients I know with MPD ritual abuse that are being
treated are women, however.  I know of some men being treated
where we've found this.  A while back I was talking to a small
group of therapists somewhere.  I told them about some of this.
In the middle of talking about some of this all the color drained
out of one social worker's face and she obviously had a reaction,
and I asked her about it and she said, "I'm working with a five-
year-old boy," and she said, "Just in the last few weeks he was
saying something about a Dr. Green."  I went on a little further
and I mentioned some of these things and she just shook her head
again.  I said, "What's going on?"  She said, "He's been
spontaneously telling me about robots and about Omega."  I think
you will find variations of this, and that they've changed it,
probably every few years and maybe somewhat regionally to throw
us off in various ways, but that certain basics and fundamentals
will probably be there.  I have seen this in people up into their
forties, including people whose parents were very, very high in
the CIA, other sorts of things like that.  I've had some that
were originally part of the Monarch Project, which is the name of
the government Intelligence project.
     Question in the back?

     Q:  I'm still not grasping how one starts, how you find out
how to erase.  How do you get that information?

     Dr. H:  I would say, "I want the core, if necessary, using
the telepathic communication ability you have to read minds,"
because they believe in that kind of stuff, so I'll use it ... I
was trained in Ericsonian stuff, "... to obtain for me the
erasure code of all Omega programs.  When you've done so, I want
the yes-finger to float up."  Then I ask them to tell it to me.
"Are there backups for Omega programs?"  "Yes."  "Okay?  How many
backups are there?"  "Six," they say, let's say.  It's different
numbers.  "Is there an erasure code for all the backup programs?"
"No."  "Is there an erasure code that combines all the backups
into one?"  "Yes."  "Obtain that code for me and when you've go
it, give me the yes-signal again."  It can move almost that fast
in some cases where there's not massive resistance.
     Question?

     Q:  Yes, can you tell me what you know about the risks to
the therapist?  [Laughter]

     Dr. H:  You would have to ask.

     Q:  Yeah, I'd like to know that.  What kind of data do you
have given that you've had contact with large numbers of people.
Not just threats, but also any injury, any family problems that
have arisen.  That's one question.  A second one is, are you
aware of anybody that you've treated -- or others -- with this
level of dissociation and trauma that have recovered?
Integrated?  Whole and happy?

     Dr. H:  Okay, I have one non-bloodline multiple, complex
multiple who had this kind of programming, where they have a lot
of access to the patient as neighbors and where the doctor, by
the way, you'll find physicians heavily involved.  They've
encouraged their own to go to medical school, to prescribe drugs
to take care of their own, to get access to medical technology
and be above suspicion.  There have been a couple, in fact, in
Utah who've been nailed now.  We now in Utah have two full time
ritual-abuse investigators with statewide jurisdiction under the
Attorney General's Office to do nothing but investigate this.
[Applause]

     Okay?  In a poll done in the State of Utah in January by the
major newspaper and television station, they found that ninety
percent of Utahans believe that ritual abuse is genuine and real.
Not all of them believe it's a frequent occurrence, but some of
that was imparted from two years of work by the Governor
Commission on Ritual Abuse, interviewing, talking, meeting
people, gathering data.  Now when people say, by the way,
"There's no evidence.  They've never found a body," that's
baloney.  They found a body in Idaho of a child.  They've had a
case last summer that was convicted on first degree murder
charges, two people that the summer before that were arrested
where the teenaged girl's finger and head were in the
refrigerator and they were convicted of first-degree murder in
Detroit.  There have been cases and bodies.
     Back to risk.  I know of no therapist who's been harmed.
But patients inform us that there will come a future time where
we could be at risk of being assassinated by patients who've been
programmed to kill at a certain time anyone that they've told,
and any member of their own family who's not active.  If that
would come about is speculative.  Who knows for sure?  Maybe, but
I don't think it's entirely without risk.
     A question in the back?

     Q:  It seems to me that there seems to be some similarity
between these kinds of programming and those people who claim
that they've been abducted by spaceships and have had themselves
physically probed and reprogrammed and all of that sort of thing.
Since Cape Canaveral is across the Florida peninsula from me and
I don't think that they've reported any spaceships lately, I was
just wondering is there any sort of relationship between this and
that?

     Dr. H:  I'll share my speculation, that comes from others
really.  I've not dealt with any of those people.  However, I
know a therapist that I know and trust and respect who I've
informed about all this a couple of years ago and has found it in
a lot of patients and so on, who is firmly of the belief that
those people are in fact ritual-abuse victims who have been
programmed with that sort of thing to destroy all their
credibility.  If somebody's coming in and reporting abduction by
a flying sauce who's going to believe them on anything else in
the future?  Also as a kind of thing that can be pointed to and
said, "This is as ridiculous as that."
     All I know is that I recently had a consult, a telephone
consult, with a therapist where I had been instructing her about
some of this kind of stuff.  When we were consulting at one point
in the fifth or sixth interview she said, "By the way, do you
know anything about this topic?"  I said, "Well, not really" and
shared with her what I shared with you.  I said, "If it were me
being with this guy ..." that she'd been seeing for a couple of
months, I said, "I would ask inside for the core to take control
of finger-signals and inquire about Alpha, Beta, Delta, Theta."
She proceeded to do all that, got back to me a week later and
said, "Boy, were you on target.  There is a part inside named Dr.
Green.  There's this kind of programming."
     Yes?

     Q:  What's the difference between this kind of program and
cult-type abuse and Satanic abuse in the kind of cults with the
candles and the ...

     Dr. H:  This type of programming will be done in the cults
with the candles and all the rest.  My impression is this is
simply done in people where they have great access to them, or
they're bloodline and their parents are in it and they can be
raised in it from an early age.  If they are bloodline they are
the chosen generation.  If not, they're expendable and they are
expected to die and not get well.  There will be booby traps in
your way, if they aren't non-bloodline people, that when they get
well they will kill themselves.  I'll tell you just a little
about that.  My belief is that some people that have ritual abuse
and don't have this, have been ritually abused but they may be
part of a non-mainstream group.  The Satanism comes in the
overall philosophy overriding all of this.
     People say, "What's the purpose of it?"  My best guess is
that the purpose of it is that they want an army of Manchurian
Candidates, ten of thousands of mental robots who will do
prostitution, do child pornography, smuggle drugs, engage in
international arms smuggling, do snuff films, all sorts of very
lucrative things, and do their bidding and eventually the
megalomaniacs at the top believe they'll create a Satanic Order
that will rule the world.
     One last question.  Then I'll give you couple of details and
we need to shift gears.

     Q:  You have suggested and implied that at some point at a
high level of the U.S. Government there was support of this kind
of thing.  I know we're short of time, but could you just say a
few words about the documentation that may exist for that
suggestion?

     Dr. H:  There isn't great documentation of it.  It comes
from victims who are imperiled witnesses.  The interesting thing
is how many people have described the same scenario, and how many
people that we have worked with who have had relatives in NASA,
in the CIA, and in the Military, including very high-ups in the
Military.
     I can tell you that a friend and colleague of mine, who has
probably the equivalent of half the table space on that far side
of the room, filled with boxes with declassified documents from
mind-control research done in the past, which has been able to be
declassified over a considerable -- couple of decades -- period,
and has read more government documents about mind control than
anyone else, has a brief that has literally been sent in the past
week and a half asking for all information to be declassified
about the Monarch Project for us to try to find out more.
     Now let me just mention something about some of the stuff
that my experience is in several patients now, that you may run
into late in the process.  I know I'm throwing a lot at you in a
hurry.  Some of it is completely foreign and some of you may
think, "Gosh, could any of this be true?"  Just, you know, ask.
Find out in your patients and you may be lucky and there isn't
any of this.  Somewhere at a deep level you may run into some
things like this.
     Let me describe to you, if I can find my pen, the system in
one patient.  One patient I had treated for quite a while, a non-
bloodline person.  We had done what appeared to be successful
work and reached final integration.  She came back to me early
last year and said she was symptomatic with some things.  I
started inquiring.  I found a part there we'd integrated.  The
part basically said, "There was other stuff that I couldn't tell
you about and you integrated me and so I had to split off."  I
had done some inquiring about things like Alpha, Beta as a
routine part of it and found they were there and I said to this
part, "Why didn't you tell me about this stuff?"  She said,
"Well, we gave you some hints but they went right over your
head."  Says, "I'm sorry, but we know that you didn't know enough
to help us, but now we know you can."  So the stuff started
coming out.  It was interesting.
     She described the overall system -- if I can remember it now
-- as being like this.  The circle represented harm to the body,
a system of alters whose primary purpose was to hurt her,
including symptoms like Munchausen's, self-mutilation, other
kinds of things.  Each of the triangles represented still another
different system.  She said, "With the exception of me," this one
part, "you dealt with the whole circle with the work that we did
before but you didn't touch the rest of the stuff."  Okay.  In
the middle of all this was still another system consisting of the
Cabalistic Tree, which some of you are aware, looks approximately
like this with lines in between and so on and so forth.  There's
a rough approximation.  That represented another system.  Then
once we got past that she implied that this entire thing was
somehow encompassed by, what do you call it, an hourglass.  I
kept thinking we were at final integration then I'd find some
other parts.
     This person had an eagle-eye husband that was watching for
certain things that we found to be reliable indicators.  So,
often I would get evidence of dissociation within a few days.  It
would suddenly be picked up.  You know, what we found was I
continued to find evidence of dissociation and I'd find parts.
Finally this part, as I got angry with him and said, "Why, when I
give these ideomotor inquiries am I getting lied to?"  This part
said, "Because you don't understand.  You're going to get us all
killed."  We started talking and then she basically said, "It's
been programmed so that if you succeed and think you've
succeeded, you will fail.  They build it in as a way to laugh at
you, that if you ever get us integrated, we will die."  Here's
what she said, this part said, "I'm one of twelve disciples," and
I've seen this in others, twelve disciples within this hourglass,
each of whom had to memorize a disciple-lesson which were basic
Satanic kinds of premises, philosophies of life like "be good to
those who hurt you, hate those who are nice to you," on and on
and on.  There may be two or three sentences like that associated
with each, that they had to memorize them.  They said, "We are
like grains of sand falling and when the last grain of sand
falls, there's Death."  I said, "Is Death a part?"  "Yes.  When
the last grain of sand falls the Sleeping Giant awakens."  The
Sleeping Giant was Death, who was then to kill them on Day-One or
Day-Six after awakening, unless certain things were followed and
we did some of those.  Well, we also found Death had a sister as
a backup, used with mirrors to create the sister part.  We had to
get past and deal with that too.  Death had certain things that
they said had to be done to integrate.  I started to say, "Oh,
come on, they lied to you before."  She said, "Wait a minute.
This is what they said you'd say.  They said that no doctor would
ever believe that they had to go to these extremes to get us
well, and that's part of the reason they'd fail."  I said, "Well,
tell me, tell me again."  She said, "I have to be dressed all in
red.  I have to have Demerol on board, to have taken Demerol.  A
code has to be given and it has to be in a room that's totally
dark.  It has to happen on Day-One or Day-Six after this part's
been awakened."
     I said what I'd have to lose?  I had a psychiatrist give her
a little Demerol.  We used the code.  My office didn't have any
windows anyway.  It was pretty easy.  Oh, and there had to be
four, I think, candles lit.  Well, fine.  So we did it and
everything went well.  Maybe it would have gone well if we hadn't
done it, but I decided not to take the chance and to trust the
patient, maybe.  Well, so we go on and then we find another part.
There's Death And Destruction, another backup also with a sister
that we had to get through.  In fact, I think there were two
backups there.  Interestingly, the very last part was an
extremely nice part, made especially that way so that they
wouldn't want to lose them, because they would be so adorable and
so loving and so sweet that they wouldn't want to maybe get rid
of them.  Then we found that she continued to have these feelings
with this last part left now, of darkness and blackness inside.
What did we find?  A curtain.  She said, "They assumed that if
you ever got to this point, you would," and along the way, by the
way, we had encountered this stuff about the LSD stuff, the Green
Bomb programming.  The message was that she said, "There is a
curtain behind which are the remaining feelings and memories, but
it can't be opened from the middle.  It's like a stage curtain.
It has to opened this way," that is it can't be opened.  They
assumed that you would try to deal with all the feelings.  That
can't be opened until you've dealt with that last part and
they've integrated.  So far it looks like we've got integration
that's holding.  So I found Death And Destruction and the
Hourglass in non-bloodline.  "The Tree and the Hourglass," this
patient informed me, "were made of sand because we were meant to
die.  We're expendable.  We're the unchosen generation."  I've
heard variously that it's crystals or blood that fills the
Hourglass in bloodline people.
     By the way, you can do real simple things like turn the
Hourglass on its side so nothing can fall out, so time stands
still to be able to do certain kinds of work.  Spread the grains
of sand on the seashore so that they can't be numbered and the
time will not be counted.  Got that idea from a ritual-abuse
victim, who had seen some of this kind of programming done, that
another therapist was seeing.  So those would be just a few other
hints about things that may be helpful or meaningful.
     We're talking about very intensive things and at deep levels
to me this give us two things.  One thing it gives to me is hope,
because it gets to material and it makes progress like nothing
else we've ever seen with these people who have it.  The second
thing it does for me is it demoralizes me, too, because although
three years ago I had a pretty good idea about the extent and
breadth of what they'd done to these victims, I had no real
appreciation for the depth and breadth and intensity of what
they'd done.
     I want to come back to the other question over here now.
The other question is how many of them can get well?  We don't
know.  In most things in the mental health profession we accept
two-thirds of the patients are going to improve, maybe seventy
percent.  There's very little chance we can get everybody well.
I think one of the sad things we have to face is that many of
these patients will probably never be well.  My personal belief
is that if they are being messed with, their only hope of getting
well is if they can somehow get out of contact.  Now I know
patients who've gone to other states and simply had deep-level
alters pick up the phone and call and said, "This is our new
address and phone number" so that they could be picked up
locally.  I mean in an inpatient unit for an extended period of
time.  If they are in a Cult from their area and they are still
being monitored and messed with, my own personal opinion is we
can't get them well and can't offer more than humanitarian caring
and supportiveness.  Lots of therapists do not like to hear that.
That's my opinion.
     I believe that if somehow they're lucky enough to be wealthy
enough to have protection, to have somehow gotten away in some
way, and we can work with them without being messed with, that
they have a chance to reach some semblance of normality and
livability with enough intensive work.  My own personal belief is
I don't think anybody with this kind of programming is well in
this country yet.  There are some who are well along the way.
I've got a couple who are well along in their work and have done
a tremendous amount, but they're clearly not well yet.

     Q:  Could you speculate on the relationship between this
stuff and the fantasy games that have been proliferating,
Dungeons and Dragons and that sort of thing?

     Dr. H:  Well, there are a lot of things out there to cue
people.  You want to see a great movie, interesting movie, to cue
people?  Go see "Trancers II."  You can rent it in your video
shop.  Came out last fall.  One night in sheer desperation for
something at the video store, you know?  Nine o'clock on Friday
night.  Everything's gone.  I rented a couple of movies and one
of them is that.  Fascinating.  They're talking about Green World
Order.  Yes, "Trancers II."  And who is the production company?
Full Moon Productions.  I couldn't see much cuing in "Trancers
I," but who's the production company in "Trancers I"?  Alter
Productions.  There are lots of things around that are cuing.
     There's an interesting person in the late sixties who talked
about the Illuminati.  Have any of you ever heard of the
Illuminati with regard to the Cult?  Had a patient bring that up
to me just about exactly two years ago.  We've now had other
stuff come out from other patients.  Appears to be the name of
the international world leadership.  There appear to be
Illuminatic Counsels in several parts of the world and one
internationally.  The name of the international leadership of the
Cult supposedly.  Is this true?  Well, I don't know.  It's
interesting we're getting some people who [we] are trying to work
[with], without cuing, who are saying some very similar things.
There was an old guy in Hollywood in the late sixties who talked
about the infiltration of Hollywood by the Illuminati.  Certainly
what some patients have said is all of this spook stuff, horror
stuff, possession and everything else that's been popularized in
the last twenty years in Hollywood, is in order to soften up the
public so that when a Satanic world order takes over, everyone
will have been desensitized to so many of these things, plus to
continually cue lots of people out there.  Is that true?  Well, I
can't definitely tell you that it is.
     What I can say is I now believe that ritual-abuse
programming is widespread, is systematic, is very organized from
highly esoteric information which is published nowhere, has not
been on any book or talk show, that we have found it all around
this country and at least one foreign country.
     Let's take a couple of quick questions and we need to get on
to other material.  Yes?

     Q:  Do you have any techniques for decreasing your level of
uncertainty that a patient is or is not being still tampered
with, "messed with," as you said?

     Dr. H:  Just that I would ask several of the parts I've
inquired about, Core, Diana, Wisdom, Master Programmer, several
parts inside I would ask about these sorts of things and I will
keep asking it.  As you do additional work and get a bit further,
I would ask again to find out.  In the back?

     Q:  I wonder if you've heard or you know of the Martin
Luther Bloodline?

     Dr. H:  The what?

     Q:  Martin Luther Bloodline?

     Dr. H:  I know nothing about Martin Luther Bloodline.  I'll
give you one other quick tip.  Ask him about an identification
code.  There's an identification code that people have.  It will
involve their birth date.  It may involve places where they were
programmed, and it will usually involve a number in there that
will be their birth order, like zero-two if they were second-
born.  It will usually involve a number that represents the
number of generations in the Cult, if they are bloodlines.  I've
seen up to twelve now, twelve generations.

     Q:  I have seen a lot of the things you've been describing
today in several patients.  I wanted to ask you a question about
the Seven Systems.  You mentioned something about systems here.
Are there Seven Systems?

     Dr. H:  There has been that described in some patients, yes,
the Seven Systems.

     Q:  Could you say what that is or a little diagram?

     Dr. H:  I don't think we know enough to know what it is,
honestly.  I think it may have to do with Seven Cabalistic Trees.

     Q:  Have you ever had any evidence where any of these people
have been tagged, and there have been anything of their body-
parts that might be related to this, private parts in particular?

     Dr. H:  Well, there are certainly people that have had
tattoos, that have had a variety of other kinds of things, some
of which have been, you know, documented in cases, but I mean to
say, well, maybe they did that to themselves or had it done
consciously to really prove something, nothing that occurs to me
right off the bat.
     Let me just take this one last question back there, and we
need to go on to other material because we're never going to get
through it all.  I'll just ask you to hold your question.

     Q:  It's not a question but I wanted to say for myself,
personally, and perhaps for others here as well, I wanted to
thank you very sincerely for taking this time to come forward.
[Applause]

     Dr. H:  Well, ... [Applause]

     Q:  Does anyone want to join us for a standing ovation for
this material?  It's wonderful.  [Sustained applause]

     Dr. H:  A dear friend who's one of the top people in the
field, who I know has had death threats, but I know struggled for
professional credibility in believing in MPD, and was harshly
criticized for even believing in that ten and fifteen years ago,
and struggled to a point of professional credibility.  I think in
his heart of hearts he knows it's true, but he will say things
like, "I wouldn't be surprised to find tomorrow it was an
international conspiracy, and I wouldn't be surprised to find
tomorrow that it is an urban myth and rumor."  He tries to stay
right on the fence and the reason is because it's controversial,
because there is a campaign underway saying these are all false
memories induced by, along with incest and everything else, by
"Oprah" and by books like "The Courage to Heal" and by naive
therapists using hypnosis.  It's controversial.
     My personal opinion has come to be that if they're going to
kill me, they're going to kill me.  There's going to be an awful
lot of information that's been put away, that'll go to
investigative reporters and multiple investigative agencies, if
it happens, and an awful lot of people like you, I hope, that if
I ever have an accident will be pushing for a very large-scale
investigation.  I think we have to stand up as some kind of moral
conscience at some point, and I tried to wait until we had gotten
enough verification from independent places to have some real
confidence that this was widespread.
     I know we've gone like a house afire to try to pack as much
as I could in for you.  I hope it's given you some things to
think about and some new ideas and I appreciate being with you.
[Long sustained applause]

[End of speech]


[Green.txt is almost identical to Greenbau.asc, small editorial
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