From eleea77@Rosie.UH.EDU Mon Jun 13 20:10:29 EDT 1994
Article: 3044 of alt.backrubs
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From: eleea77@Rosie.UH.EDU
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
Subject: Re: Chiropractic
Date: 13 Jun 1994 20:32:48 GMT
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In article <46563@mindlink.bc.ca>, Stephen_Miller@mindlink.bc.ca (Stephen Miller) writes:
>Can anyone please describe favourable experiences at the hands of
>chiropractors?  Also negatives if they are particularly horrible.  Thanks.

	In the summer of '92, I had my back "go out"--suddenly, I couldn't
bend over, had difficulty standing up, etc., with constant pain.  After a
few days of heat and anti-inflammatories, I finally got the courage to go
to a chiropractor (actually, I was desperate!)  The first visit, they only
applied heat and electrical muscle stimulation and took X-rays.  The heat
and muscle stim gave a minimal amount of relief.  The next morning, I went 
back and had a "spinal adjustment".  The pain relief was almost instantaneous.
They wanted to see me daily for about a week, then every other day, etc.
I continued for about a month.  The "adjustments" would help, but not long
enough.  My first chiropractor went on vacation in the middle of all this,
and his partners took turns on me.  I mentioned to one that the relief didn't
last, and he told me to be sure that I kept my spine straight for at least
thirty minutes after the treatment--no twisting or bending.  He said the
muscles needed to "get accustomed" to the new vertebral alignment. That was my
last adjustment--I never needed another one.  
	The only down side--I felt that the owner of the clinic really
wanted to "enroll" me in a perpetual care--"see me once a month forever"
type of thing.  The cost is not outrageous for acute care (and I am lucky
enough to have insurance that pays 80% on all of it), but I don't feel that
it is something I need "for the rest of my life".
	I have never spoken to anyone who has PERSONALLY had a bad experience.
My parents have used chiropractors for 35+ years.  I have of course heard a
lot of "third-hand" horror stories, and I would NOT go to a chiropractor as
a primary care provider.  However, I do feel they have a definite niche to
fill in the musculo-skeletal area.

Vickie  


From stevi@clark.net Mon Jun 13 20:10:52 EDT 1994
Article: 3046 of alt.backrubs
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From: stevi@clark.net (Stevi Deter)
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
Subject: Re: Chiropractic
Date: 13 Jun 1994 23:49:37 GMT
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Stephen Miller (Stephen_Miller@mindlink.bc.ca) wrote:
: Can anyone please describe favourable experiences at the hands of
: chiropractors?  Also negatives if they are particularly horrible.  Thanks.

I went to a chiropractor in hopes of finding relief/cure for chronic 
migraines.  About thirty minutes after my first adjustment, I had the 
worst migraine of my life.  Naseau, vomiting, pain so bad I wanted to 
take a pick axe to my head, sensitivity to the slightest sound, like 
people whispering in the next room.

And ever since the adjustment, I've been able to crack my neck by craning 
it.  I never could do that before.  Now I do it all the time, although 
I'm sure it's prolly very bad for me.

I know many people who swear by chiropractors, but I'll stick with my 
codeine, ice packs and pinching that tendon between my thumb and index 
finger.

BTW, I still intend to make that summary of responses I received in re: 
possible migraine relief.  Thanks to all who responded.

--
Kilroy wasn't here.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back into the same box."
--Italian proverb


From hbeco003@huey.csun.edu Mon Jun 13 20:11:07 EDT 1994
Article: 3045 of alt.backrubs
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From: hbeco003@huey.csun.edu (david shufutinsky)
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
Subject: Consumer Reports
Date: 13 Jun 1994 22:30:07 GMT
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The June 1994 Issue of Consumer Reports has an indepth article on
Chiropractors entitled :Can They Help ? / Do They Harm ?

Its actually the cover story. I havent read throug it yet, but looks very
detailed - exactly what you would expect from reaserch by Consumer Reports.

Check it out at the newsstand.

dms



From w2jc@ritz.mordor.com Tue Jun 14 07:34:33 EDT 1994
Article: 3048 of alt.backrubs
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From: w2jc@ritz.mordor.com (Jim Cooper)
Subject: Re: Chiropractic
References: <46563@mindlink.bc.ca> <2tifpg$5aq@masala.cc.uh.edu>
Sender: w2jc@ritz.mordor.com (Jim Cooper)
Organization: Mordor International BBS
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 1994 04:38:53 GMT
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In article <2tifpg$5aq@masala.cc.uh.edu>, eleea77@Rosie.UH.ED wrote:

> I would NOT go to a chiropractor as
> a primary care provider.  However, I do feel they have a definite niche to
> fill in the musculo-skeletal area.

I solved that problem by choosing an  OSTEOPATH...  they are a medical
doctor with chiropractic training in addition. (the best of both worlds).



From w2jc@ritz.mordor.com Tue Jun 14 07:34:45 EDT 1994
Article: 3047 of alt.backrubs
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From: w2jc@ritz.mordor.com (Jim Cooper)
Subject: Re: Chiropractic
References: <46563@mindlink.bc.ca>
Sender: w2jc@ritz.mordor.com (Jim Cooper)
Organization: Mordor International BBS
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 1994 03:23:55 GMT
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In article <46563@mindlink.bc.ca>, Stephen Miller wrote:

> Can anyone please describe favourable experiences at the hands of
> chiropractors?  Also negatives if they are particularly horrible.  Thanks.

About 25 years ago, when I was a late teen, I was hit very suddenly 
by dibillitating back pain - so bad I crumbled on the concrete cellar 
floor and took about 20 minutes just to flatten out on my back. After 
extremely painful trips to several doctors, a neighbor referred my mother 
to a favorite chiropractor. I was taken there, could barely walk up the 
front walk, and when I left I was standing upright with only slight pain.
By the end of the week, I was walking painlessly.
  Eventually, a chiropractor put his finger on exactly the problem: one 
leg is a bit longer than the other, and constantly puts a chronic twist 
on the lumbar and spine. Now I only need an "adjustment" once or twice 
a year, plus some do-it-myself stretchs at night.

As far as I am concerned, ANYTHING that is structural in the body needs 
a chiropractor. Medicine (chemicals) from a medical doctor cant change 
physical, structural imbalances - they only mask the pain (maybe) until 
the structural problem becomes so bad that something cracks.



From bthomas@nic.gac.edu (Barbara L Thomas) Sat Jun 25 11:44:22 EDT 1994
Article: 3102 of alt.backrubs
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From: bthomas@nic.gac.edu (Barbara L Thomas)
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
Subject: hands...
Date: 25 Jun 1994 15:08:06 GMT
Organization: Gustavus Adolphus College
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Hi all... I'm just looking for comments and further ideas..

A friend of mine is a massage therapist.  About two months ago she was at
the chiropractor and he was doing something to her hands and he cracked
her right thumb - by pulling straight out on it... *shake*  It hasn't been
right since.  Every morning when she wakes up it is stiff and "jumps"
before it is worked and warmed up.  Last night, after having had a long
day at work and really overusing teh thumb she came to me to see if I
could do anything with it.  I starting working on it and immediately found
that the tendon on the inside was so tight that I couldn't believe she was
using it to begin with...  It is my belief that the chiropractor
hyperextended the tendon when he cracked her thumb.  And since she never
really rested it or allowed it to heal becuase of using her hands as her
job, her thumb is still tight and not stretched out to wear it should be. 
I worked on it for about 45 minutes mostly doing a lot of slow pressure,
but couldn't get very hard becuase I could feel some swelling in the joing
and didn't want to cause more damage than I was fixing.. but between that
and a lot of stretches and involved pushing from the base of her hand up
and out (which seemed to work marvelously btw.. you should have seen the
look on her face.. *grin*) I was just wondering if any of you have any
better ideas for diagnosis or further work.  If it's what I think it is,
she will continue to have trouble with for at least a couple more months
until that tendon is allowed to heal.  But she is going to be stretching
on a daily basis now before she starts work so that ought to improve
healing immensely...

What do you think?

Barbara

-- 
Barbara L. Thomas
"The World may never know."
bthomas@nic.gac.edu


From w2jc@ritz.mordor.com Sun Oct 23 08:23:14 EDT 1994
Article: 3848 of alt.backrubs
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From: w2jc@ritz.mordor.com (Jim Cooper)
Subject: Chiropractic Regulations
Sender: w2jc@ritz.mordor.com (Jim Cooper)
Organization: Mordor International BBS
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 1994 18:05:15 GMT
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Reply-To: w2jc@ritz.mordor.com

  ====== FORWARDED MESSAGE of possible interest to this group ========

From: j.paff1@genie.geis.com
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 94 05:25:00 UTC
Subject: Chiropractic Regulations


Every so often, I hear a person wonder aloud how unelected
 bureaucrats in state administrative agencies get so much power over
 our lives.  The object of this post (admittedly long--I apologize)
 is to demonstrate how such is done.
 
At issue is a proposal by the State Board of Chiropractic
 Examiners, a Board within the Department of Law and Public Safety's
 Division of Consumer Affairs.  In short, the Board is irked that
 some New Jersey chiropractors are using treatment methods that the
 Board considers to be "unsubstantiated."  It is the purpose of this
 rule, therefore, to prohibit these "unsubstantiated" procedures
 resulting in a state mandated orthodoxy in the field of
 chiropractic care.
 
While the stated purpose of the rule is to "protect the public
 health, safety and welfare," it is in reality nothing more than yet
 another governmental fiat that limits our choices in health care.
 This limitation of choice is touted by the Board as being in our
 benefit, as the rule will "aid the public in making more informed
 decisions" by "reduc[ing] confusion" that currently exists.  After
 all, we private sector simpletons are easily confused, so we need
 to have our choices made for us by our betters in the government
 sector.
 
Following is the complete text of the rule proposal that was
 published in the October 3, 1994 issue of the New Jersey Register
 (26 N.J.R. 3932).  According to law, members of the public have the
 right to submit written comments to the Board, and the Board must
 publish its response to each comment it receives in a future issue
 of the Register.  So, in other words, if you submit a comment, your
 name, your comment and the Boards response thereto will appear in
 offical print.  Isn't that fun?
 
Comments are due by November 2, 1994.  Send them to:
 
     Kay McCormack, Executive Director
     State Board of Chiropractic Examiners
     P.O. Box 45004
     Newark, NJ   07101
 
Note in your letter that you are responding to Proposal Number: PRN
 1994-531.
 
If you decide to send in a comment, please post it here on the list
 for all of us to see.  If comments are posted, I will take
 responsibility for posting the Board's responses to those comments.
 
Finally, if you feel that this is worthwhile post, let me know and
 I will post more proposed rules periodically.
 
In Liberty,
 
John
 
 
The agency proposal follows:
 
                             Summary
 
The State Board of Chiropractic Examiners is reproposing an
 amendment to N.J.A.C. 13:44E-1.1, Scope of practice, which sets
 forth not only the methodology but also the diagnostic and
 analytical procedures that fall within the scope of chiropractic
 care.  The proposed amendments were originally proposed on
 September 7, 1993 as PRN 1993-499 at 25 N.J.R. 3931(b).  Based not
 only on public comments but also on renewed discussion among its
 members, the Board has decided to change the original proposal in
 the following ways.
 
The previous references that appeared throughout the proposal
 regarding whether a "theory, modality or procedure" is
 unsubstantiated have been deleted in favor of references to a
 "diagnostic or therapeutic system or method" because of concerns
 expressed by the public that regulation of "theory" would make the
 scope of this rule overly broad.   Another change involves the
 deletion of the option whereby the Board might have otherwise
 deemed "other factors" relevant in determining whether a system or
 method is unsubstantiated; the Board agreed to delete this
 provision because it is redundant, Moreover, the Board agreed to
 delete that option because according to revised subsection (h)
 licensees who engage in a system or method that the Board deems
 unsubstantiated but which is not expressly prohibited in subsection
 (g) will no longer be subject to license suspension or revocation,
 nor to monetary penalties aside from costs associated with
 receiving a cease-and-desist order and the refunding of fees
 obtained from the utilization of an unsubstantiated system or
 method until such time as the Board has adopted an amendment to
 subsection (g) that does expressly prohibit the system or method in
 question unless the other conditions set forth in subsection (h)
 are relevant.
 
In addition, the Board has decided to revise subsection (g) as
 follows: to revise and expand, for the sake of clarity, the
 provision that references "networking" or "network chiropractic";
 to provide for an exception whereby craniopathy or craniology is
 deemed to be within the scope of chiropractic provided that
 craniopathy or craniology is part of the sacro-occipital technique;
 and to include hair analysis and meningeal massage as among those
 systems or methods that the Board deems to be unsubstantiated.
 
Finally, new subsection (i) sets forth the procedure whereby a
 licensee may seek an advisory ruling as to whether the Board deems
 a system or method to be unsubstantiated.
 
Aside from these specific changes, the reproposal reflects the
 original proposal in that it consists of three new subsections,
 (f), (g) and (h), that will further define the scope of
 chiropractic care by citing certain systems or methods that lie
 beyond the scope of chiropractic care in order to protect the
 public from unsubstantiated practices that might otherwise be
 "marketed" under the guise of chiropractic care.  Thus the intent
 of the proposed amendments is to counteract the surge in the use of
 unsubstantiated chiropractic systems or methods that misrepresent
 the profession to the public and thereby threaten its credibility
 and damage its ability to serve the public,
 
Subsection (f) would prohibit licensees from representing or
 utilizing an unsubstantiated system or method as constituting
 chiropractic care. Subsection (f) further outlines some specific
 factors that the Board may take into consideration in determining
 whether or not a system or method employed by a licensee is
 unsubstantiated and thereby exceeds the chiropractic scope of
 practice.  Those factors include whether the system or method is an
 integrated part of the academic curriculum of accredited
 chiropractic colleges; whether it is validated, or is as of yet too
 speculative in nature; and whether it is accepted by a responsible
 and substantial segment of the chiropractic community.  In essence,
 the threshold that any given system or method needs to satisfy is
 that it must have gained either widespread academic, scientific or
 chiropractic community acceptance.
 
Subsection (g) addresses systems and methods specifically
 identified as excluded from the scope of chiropractic care.  This
 list of unsubstantiated services includes, but is not limited to,
 "networking." While subject to additions by the Board, the list
 will in its present form give both the public and licensees a clear
 sense of chiropractic systems and methods excluded from the scope
 of chiropractic care.
 
Subsection (h) states that even if a system or method is not
 specifically identified in subsection (g), the Board may decide
 that it is unsubstantiated and order the refund of fees earned by
 its utilization and issue a cease-and-desist order that will remain
 in effect until such time as the Board adopts an amendment to
 subsection (g) that expressly prohibits the system or method in
 question.  The subsection provides for two exceptions, however, in
 that a licensee utilizing an unsubstantiated system or method that
 endangers the public health, safety or welfare or who has
 previously been issued a cease and desist order for the
 unsubstantiated system or method at issue may be found to have
 committed a violation of N.J.S.A. 45:1-21 by having utilized such
 a system or method or by not complying with the provisions of
 proposed subsections (f) and (g).
 
                          Social Impact
 
Given the recent increase in unsubstantiated services being offered
 to the public by some licensees, the reproposed amendment will
 undoubtedly have a major social impact.  Patients and the public at
 large are likely to experience the impact in the following two
 ways: through a severe if not complete reduction in licensees who
 offer the unsubstantiated services because they know they would
 otherwise be operating outside the scope of chiropractic care, and
 a corresponding decrease in confusion as to what services
 constitute chiropractic care.  The decrease in confusion should
 result because licensees will no longer be permitted either to
 represent or to bill for unsubstantiated chiropractic services,
 conduct that inevitably attempts to confuse those services with
 legitimate chiropractic care.
 
The reduced confusion should aid the public to make more informed
 decisions as to whether to pay an individual offering services that
 are not within the scope of chiropractic care.
 
                         Economic Impact
 
The economic impact of the reproposed amendment will be felt by
 those members of the profession who are currently offering or
 engaging in unsubstantiated chiropractic services and who will not
 be able to do so under the reproposed amendment to the scope of
 chiropractic care. In instances where an unsubstantiated system or
 method has not been expressly prohibited but is found to be
 unsubstantiated at an administrative hearing, licensees may need to
 refund fees earned by the utilization of that unsubstantiated
 system or method and to bear the costs associated with receiving a
 cease-and-desist order.
 
For its part, the public will also be affected by the reproposed
 amendment.  The public stands to benefit from greater clarity
 regarding the scope of chiropractic care because such clarity
 should eliminate payments for unsubstantiated services, thereby
 enabling insurance companies to realize savings that may be passed
 on to consumers.  In particular, consumers may in some instances
 benefit from the return of fees earned by a licensee engaged in the
 utilization of a system or method deemed to be unsubstantiated
 pursuant to an administrative hearing.
 
                 Regulatory Flexibility Analysis
 
If, for the purposes of the Regulatory Flexibility Act, N.J.S.A.
 52:14B-16 et seq., chiropractors are deemed "small businesses"
 within the meaning of the statute, the following statement is
 applicable: The proposed amendment, which governs and defines
 systems and methods that are unsubstantiated and cannot be offered
 or represented either as chiropractic care or as the basis of
 reimbursement, will apply to all of the approximately 3,000 current
 licensees of the Board of Chiropractic Examiners.  No reporting or
 recordkeeping is required, nor does the amendment require initial
 capital costs or the retention of professional services or any
 other costs of compliance.  The only compliance requirement is
 adherence to the proposed amendment.  The Board considers the
 amendment to be reasonable and to be the minimum necessary for the
 protection of the public health, safety and welfare.  For that
 reason, the proposed amendment must be uniformly applied to all
 licenses without differentiation as to size of practice.
 
Full text of the proposed amendment follows (additions indicated in
 boldface thus):
 
13:44E-1.1 Scope of practice
 
(a)-(e) (No change.)
 
START BOLDFACE
 
(f) A licensee in the course of the practice of chiropractic shall
 not utilize, represent or hold out the use of, or advertise in any
 manner any unsubstantiated diagnostic or therapeutic system or
 method Including, but not limited to, any such examination, test,
 substance, device or procedure.  In making the determination that
 a system or method is unsubstantiated, the Board shall consider
 factors including, but not limited to, the following
 
1.   Whether the system or method is taught as part of the core
     curriculum or in a regular course for credit in a school
     approved by the Board pursuant to N.J.S.A.  45:9-41.6.  For
     the purpose of this rule, the fact that a system or method is
     or has been offered In a one-time not for credit or not
     regularly scheduled seminar, lecture or program shall not
     suffice.  The system or method must be integrated Into the
     academic curriculum of an accredited chiropractic college.
 
2.   Whether the system or method is accepted by a responsible and
     substantial segment of the chiropractic community, or
 
3.   Whether the system or method or Its claimed effects are
     speculative or experimental.  "Claimed effects" may include
     claims made by or attributable to a chiropractor by his or her
     words or action.
 
(g) All following systems and methods, Including any diagnostic,
 analytical and treatment procedures related thereto, are found to
 be unsubstantiated:
 
1.   "Networking" or 'network chiropractic" when combined with
     unsubstantiated or speculative claimed effects regarding
     psychological or emotional conditions or "clearouts";
 
2.   Craniopathy or craniology, except when part of the sacro-
     occipital technique;
 
3.   Arm-mentoring/surrogate testing;
 
4.   Any technique which purports to utilize procedures involving
     the patient's electromagnetic field, including but not limited
     to "harmonic therapy";
 
5.   Applied kinesiology as applied to the visceral organs or for
     nutritional analysis;
 
6.   Hair analysis; and
 
7.   Meningeal massage.
 
(h) In addition to the systems and methods specified In (g) above,
 the Board may determine in an administrative hearing conducted In
 accordance with the Administrative Procedure Act, N.J.S. 52:14B-1
 et seq, and the Uniform Administrative Procedure Rules, N.J.A.C.
 1:1, that a system or method Is unsubstantiated and therefore not
 within the scope of chiropractic.  In the event the Board
 determines that a system or method not expressly prohibited in (g)
 above is unsubstantiated, the Board may impose disciplinary
 sanctions limited to a cease and desist order, costs, and the
 ordering of refunds of fees obtained from the utilization of an
 unsubstantiated system or method.  The Board shall not be so
 limited, however, In any such proceeding where:
 
1.   All unsubstantiated system or method poses an imminent danger
     to the public health, safety and welfare including, but not
     limited to, physical danger to patients or defrauding of
     patients or third party payors; or
 
2.   The licensee has been previously ordered to cease and desist
     with respect to the particular unsubstantiated system or
     method in issue.
 
(i) A licensee may, at any time, seek an advisory ruling from the
 B"W as to whether a system or method will be deemed unsubstantiated
 within the meaning of this section.  A request for such ruling
 should be submitted in writing to the Board and shall include all
 data, information and materials supporting such system or method.
 The Board, upon receipt of such a request, may advise the licensee
 to refrain from offering or performing the system or method until
 the Board renders its ruling.  Nothing in this subsection shall
 prohibit the Board from acting under (b) above if it so deems
 necessary.
 
END BOLDFACE
 
end post
 


From LizB@ix.netcom.com (Liz Bernstein) Thu Nov 17 07:23:50 EST 1994
Article: 4078 of alt.backrubs
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Subject: Re: Chronic Pain Relief & Releases of Endorphins
Date: 17 Nov 1994 06:58:49 GMT
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In <3abkap$bcm@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> root@athena.mit.edu 
(0000-Admin(0000)) writes: 

>
>To the chiropracter...
>
>No, you're definately not as rigorously trained as a MD. Admission to
>your schools is not nearly as rigorous as medical or osteopathic 
school,
>the academic curricula is decidedly weaker and the clinical supervision
>you receive is far less comprehensive than what a MD receives. Your
>training is far less comprehensive in the medical arena than what a
>physicians assistant receives. 
>
>Your training and expertise is dealing with problems of the spine. If
>you limit your practice to that area, you're a wise and ethical
>practitioner. However, if you extend your practice as a chiropracter
>to areas outside that, you're definately outside your league.
>
Got your note and for the record, I do limit my practice to the 
treatment of spinal (and some extremity) pain because I know that I 
don't have equivalent training as an MD.  
 
I was trained at one of the best schools, Los Angeles College of 
Chiropractic.  Course for course we received equal depth and breath of 
the medical sciences.. I know this because I compared texts and tests 
with a friend of mine who was simultaneously enrolled at UCLA. I found 
that I could take the tests without study and fair pretty well.

Where our (chiropractic) education fails is where it ends. We do not 
have access to hospital rounds whereas MD's go on to at least three 
years of "apprenticeship" i.e. residency training (where they often cut 
their teeth with the better nurses on the floor).  This is one of those 
tough situations where chiropractors are not allowed to have access to 
an educational experience and then told that "only experienced need to 
reply".  It's like having an intense embargo placed on Cuba and then 
claiming that "Communism" has failed.
 
But nonetheless, because I recognize my limitations I do 
limit my practice to the diagnosis and treatment of musculo-skeletal 
condtions.  I am always glad and relieved to find out that many of my 
patients have come to me once they have fallen through the diagnostic 
cracks of Western Scientific protocols.  

In my desire to extend my scope of practice I have taken on the study of 
Acupuncture.  Despite the santimonious response of one sceptic it will 
not take too long to start validating the claims in peer-review studies. 
 The problem is in finding peers.  American and European medical doctors 
fail to have sufficient training to understand the complexities of 
traditional chinese medicine.  Double-blind studies are difficult in 
acupuncture (as it is in surgery).  You can't hide placebo points from 
the acupuncturist. I suspect the best studies will come from the Orient 
where both Traditional and Western Sciences are integrated in 
both study and practice in educational institutions and in the 
hospitals. 

It is my goal to continue to work in a multi-disciplinary field such as 
the chronic pain clinics that you have referred to.  I would like to 
leave the medical diagnostic work to those who do that best, trained 
medical doctors so I can do what I do best - treat injured and ailing 
patients with cost effective, effective non-invasive therapeutics.  I 
agree with you that chronic pain is a multi-systems approach.  It isn't 
very scientifically honest for "side of the aisle" to obfuscate 
empirical data for the sake of exclusivity or power.
 
BTW, I thought that the Consumer Unions articles were right on for 
Acupuncture and a bit rough on Chiropractic.  There are elements of the 
chiropractic community that are renegades and don't hold themselves 
accountable to anyone.  However, there was not enough discussion to the 
contribution we have made to physical medicine and the widespread 
adaptation of our techniques by physiatry and PT.  The health system has 
a way of co-opting valid discoveries by others and only referring to 
obvious weaknesses of these allied disciplines.  Such is the Body 
politic of the the evolution of scientific understanding. 




From tnt@onramp.net (Terry Norman) Sat Nov 26 09:06:31 EST 1994
Article: 4142 of alt.backrubs
Path: newshost.uwo.ca!torn!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.onramp.net!ftw04.onramp.net!user
From: tnt@onramp.net (Terry Norman)
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
Subject: Re: Chiropractor vs. Osteopath?
Date: 26 Nov 1994 05:46:34 GMT
Organization: Acupressure Institute
Lines: 27
Distribution: world
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NNTP-Posting-Host: ftw04.onramp.net

In article <3b66mm$ui8@bigblue.oit.unc.edu>, Tom.Valesky@launchpad.unc.edu
(Tom Valesky) wrote:

> What's the difference between a chiropractor and an osteopath? Why do I
> never hear anything about osteopathy these days? Are there any good
> books out that describe what osteopathy is all about?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Tom Valesky
> -- 
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- 
> Launchpad is an experimental internet BBS. The views of its users do not 
> necessarily represent those of UNC-Chapel Hill, OIT, or the SysOps.
.> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --

An Osteopath must perform a years reisdencee in a hostipal, after their
internship program is finished, and after their 4 years of med. school. 
They have the same basic training as a MD, and many also have training in
manipulative medicine (similar to what a chiropractor does).  They
generally only lack an additional 3 yrs. residencee, along with a
specialization, to be an MD.  Chiropractors have 4-6 yrs of training,
with, I believe, 2 yrs. internship with another chiropractor.  They are
not allowed to despense medicine or write perscriptions as an osteopath
can.

TNT




From w2jc@ritz.mordor.com Sun Nov 27 08:16:50 EST 1994
Article: 4149 of alt.backrubs
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
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From: w2jc@ritz.mordor.com (Jim Cooper)
Subject: Re: Chiropractor vs. Osteopath?
X-Signature: YES! - the Yarn Editor Shell, Version 0.06.B1120
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In article <022373BRLQWCWJFFJWVT@mowbbs.uucp.netcom.com>,
cthulu@mowbbs.uucp.netcom.com wrote:
Þ          Even though Osteopaths are still around (I work occasionally
Þ with two) it's really an antiquated Medical Degree. The modren term is
Þ Orthopeadic Surgeon. 

Did you ASK your two Osteopaths if this statement is true?

I think you will find it is quite off base... an Osteopath is RARELY 
a surgeon...  an orthopedic surgeon IS a surgeon, and can cut...
An Osteopath cannot cut.

--
  **********************
  Jim Cooper   w2jc@ritz.mordor.com
               w2jc@dorsai.org
  
  A happy user of Yarn offline-reader/mailer, version 0.73!
  **********************
      Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist ought to have his head examined.
  *******************************************************************



From red.beard@tde.com Mon Nov 28 14:14:57 EST 1994
Article: 4161 of alt.backrubs
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
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From: red.beard@tde.com
Subject: CHIROPRACTOR VS. OSTEOPATH?
Message-ID: <9411280754.A8634wk@tde.com>
Organization: TDE | 28 Lines | Colorado's Largest! | 303.458.1BBS
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Status: R



 > medical thought, but more or less the two are one and the same. 

Hardly!!!!!!!!!! While some osteopaths get the same education and training as
an orthopedic surgeon, it isn't required to call yourself an osteopath.  The
requirements to call yourself an orthopedic surgeon are specific and a lot
tougher.  BEWARE.



From fischer@falcons.ent.ohiou.edu (Chris Fischer) Thu Dec  1 07:59:46 EST 1994
Article: 4178 of alt.backrubs
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
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From: fischer@falcons.ent.ohiou.edu (Chris Fischer)
Subject: Re: Chiropractor vs. Osteopath?
Message-ID: 
Sender: news@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (news account)
Organization: College of Engg. & Tech., Ohio University, Athens, Ohio
References: <022373BRLQWCWJFFJWVT@mowbbs.uucp.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 15:43:00 GMT
Lines: 52
Status: R

In article <022373BRLQWCWJFFJWVT@mowbbs.uucp.netcom.com> cthulu@mowbbs.uucp.netcom.com writes:
>
>
>
>IT>What's the difference between a chiropractor and an osteopath? Why do I
>IT>never hear anything about osteopathy these days? Are there any good
>IT>books out that describe what osteopathy is all about?
>
>IT>Thanks,
>
>IT>Tom Valesky
>IT>-- 
>IT>-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- 
>IT>Launchpad is an experimental internet BBS. The views of its users do not 
>IT>necessarily represent those of UNC-Chapel Hill, OIT, or the SysOps.
>IT>-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
>
>
>         Even though Osteopaths are still around (I work occasionally
>with two) it's really an antiquated Medical Degree. The modren term is
>Orthopeadic Surgeon. There are some minor differences in background and
>application since the training for Osteopaths is grounded in a very old
>medical thought, but more or less the two are one and the same. Kinda
>like (but not quite) the difference between an Orthopeadic Surgeon and a
>Podiatrist.
>
Ohio University (where I attend) has one of the few colleges of Osteopathic
Medicine in the US.  (I think there are something like 15).  My understanding
from several friends who have been D.O. students (Doctor of Osteopathy) here
is that modern D.O.'s can specialize in any field that an M.D. would
specialize in (i.e. OB/Gyn, Internal medicine, geriatrics, pediatrics, or
orthopeadics).  However, at OU there is a heavy emphasis on family medicine,
as opposed to specializing in, say, heart surgery.  My friends, when
asked about the difference between DO's and MD's say that aside from
osteopathic manipulation, there is little difference between the 
degrees.  They argue that DO training places more emphasis on treating
the whole patient, where MD training tends to address treatment of
symptoms & diseases.  Since I'm not familiar with MD training, I can't
comment on the validity of this point of view.

As far as schooling goes, they have 3 or 4 years of classroom work, 
followed by an unpaid internship (1 or 2 years) followed by residency.

>From personal experience, the student health center here is staffed
with both DO's and MD's.  There is no appreciable difference in 
their fundamental approach to everyday medicine (ie colds, sprains,
or whatever an average college student might see a doctor for) moreso
than there might be between individual MD's in the same situation.

Chris Fischer
fischer@falcons.ent.ohiou.edu



From PJRY45A@prodigy.com (John Oprysko) Mon Dec  5 16:48:12 EST 1994
Article: 4614 of alt.backrubs
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From: PJRY45A@prodigy.com (John Oprysko)
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
Subject: Re: Chiropractor vs. Osteopath?
Date: 3 Dec 1994 20:00:03 GMT
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If I may jump in here, I can clear the air on this matter. I am a D.O. . 
I have a four year bachelor's degree, spent four years in medical 
(osteopathic) school and spent three years in a family practice residency 
program. I hold the same license as an M.D. . I may practice surgery, 
deliver babies, prescribe medications, or do any other procedures that a 
M.D. may perform ( provided that I take the proper post-graduate training,
 i.e. surgery, ob/gyn etc.). I am also trained in manipulation of the 
spine and extremities as is a chiropractor,however, a chiropractor may 
not prescribe medication, or perform surgery( if needed ) to correct a 
spinal or extremity abnormality.



             I hope this helps



From John Wiens  Fri Jan  6 09:42:30 EST 1995
Article: 19880 of misc.health.alternative
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From: John Wiens 
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition,sci.med,misc.health.alternative
Subject: **ANNOUNCE** The Chiropractic Page
Date: 6 Jan 1995 14:10:18 GMT
Organization: The University of Manitoba
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NNTP-Posting-Host: dial061.mbnet.mb.ca
Xref: newshost.uwo.ca sci.med.nutrition:18886 sci.med:106290 misc.health.alternative:19880

This World Wide Web page has been created primarily as a pointer
to health related subjects with a focus on information for
chiropractors, other health care practitioners and interested 
laypersons. As with most WWW sites The Chiropractic Page is 
continually under construction. As chiropractic presence on
the Web grows increasing numbers of sites will become available.

Point your client to:

The Chiropractic Page   http://www.mbnet.mb.ca/~jwiens/chiro.html

John Wiens, DC
jwiens@mbnet.mb.ca




From Graham@fragrant.demon.co.uk Tue May 30 09:48:51 EDT 1995
Article: 6414 of alt.backrubs
Path: newshost.uwo.ca!torn!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!demon!fragrant.demon.co.uk!Graham
From: Graham Sorenson 
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
Subject: Re: No Subject
Date: 30 May 1995 08:52:07 +0100
Organization: None
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Status: R

In article:   nn7van@ballarat.edu.au writes:
> 
> Jason,
>     Try an osteopath they have a much more holistic approach to chiropracters
> or physiotherapists and they work. It sounds like you have a bit of sciatica 
> which can be caused by bad lifting techniques or through bad posture. I hurt 
> my back a couple of years ago and couldn't sit or stand(it was lower right 
> back).Three visits to the osteopath and I'm a new woman. They incorporate 
> massage,manipulation and general posture training to improve all aspects of 
> poor backs. I was told to strengthen my abdominal muscles as these play a 
> major role in good posture.
>                           -Vicki.


Sorry Vickie I disagree,,  First you must find out about the osteopath/chiropracter etc because I 
have had the complete opposite experience.  I went to osetopaths and to chiropracters and by far 
the better holistic treatment I have had has been from the chiropracters.

This is not a flame, (g) just an observation.

The rest of the information is certainly good though.

Regards

Graham

> 
> 
-- 
Graham Sorenson                 Guide to Aromatherapy URL
http://www.dircon.co.uk/home/philrees/fragrant/index.html



From Alise Libman  Mon Jun  5 20:32:34 EDT 1995
Article: 6467 of alt.backrubs
Path: newshost.uwo.ca!torn!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.onramp.net!usenet
From: Alise Libman 
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
Subject: physical therapist in training will answer questions
Date: 5 Jun 1995 22:32:40 GMT
Organization: On-Ramp; Individual Internet Connections; Dallas/Ft Worth/Houston, TX USA
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <3r00m8$2o2@news.onramp.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: lub02.onramp.net

Hi all...

I am currently in training to be a physical therapist, which includes
many massage and acupressure techniques.  If anyone has any questions 
they need answered from someone who is being trained in this area,
then feel free to email me.  I will try to look on here as often as
possible, but email works better with my busy schedule.  just email
me at yankee@onramp.net and include in the subject line "(subject in
question) question" [ie.."massage question" or "paintherapy question"]
I'd be more than happy to help anyone out, as it also helps my 
training out.  Thanks...and hope to hear from some people soon.

Ali Libman
College of Physical Therapy
Texas Tech University
yankee@onramp.net



From tnt@onramp.net (Terry Norman) Wed Jun  7 07:53:59 EDT 1995
Article: 6488 of alt.backrubs
Path: newshost.uwo.ca!torn!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.onramp.net!turnpike08.onramp.net!user
From: tnt@onramp.net (Terry Norman)
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
Subject: Re: physical therapist in training will answer questions
Date: 7 Jun 1995 06:02:26 GMT
Organization: Acupressure Institute
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In article <3r00m8$2o2@news.onramp.net>, Alise Libman  wrote:

> Hi all...
> 
> I am currently in training to be a physical therapist, which includes
> many massage and acupressure techniques.  If anyone has any questions 
> they need answered from someone who is being trained in this area,
> then feel free to email me.  I will try to look on here as often as
> possible, but email works better with my busy schedule.  just email
> me at yankee@onramp.net and include in the subject line "(subject in
> question) question" [ie.."massage question" or "paintherapy question"]
> I'd be more than happy to help anyone out, as it also helps my 
> training out.  Thanks...and hope to hear from some people soon.
> 
> Ali Libman
> College of Physical Therapy
> Texas Tech University
> yankee@onramp.net

Alise:

Unless YOUR PT classes are extremely different than most other PT classes
taught in the US and especially Texas, Massage, Acupressure, and the
concepts of Trad. Chinese Medicine are not taught.  At best most PT
schools may teach something about the channels, a few common points for
chronic pain, and a brief bit about the Yin and Yang Theory as it deals
with Chinese Med.  I have been doing Acupressure, Massage, and Tuina
(Chinese Physical Medicine) for more than 23 yrs and have taught some of
the basic concepts for the PT Dept. at Tarrant County Junior College in
Ft. Worth, so I am aware of what is generally taught in PT schools
regarding Acupressure and Trad. Chinese Med.  Most of the schools wouldn't
come within 100 ft. of a Chinese Med. text book, much less encourage their
students to learn and practice the techniques.

So, unless you are an unusual individual and have taken it upon yourself
to study Chinese Med. and Acupressure on your own, and/or are fortunate to
be studying at a very progressive PT school, I doubt that you would be
able to give medical advice on treating chronic pain & injuries with
Massage and Acupressure.  Modern PT seems to focus more on Rehab. through
the use of modalities and range of motion exercises than spending time
performing Soft and Connective Tissue Manipulation such as Massage or
Acupressure.

I would be happy to correspond with you on the subjects of Massage,
Acupressure, and Trad. Chinese Med., if you'd like.  You can contact me
through my E-mail.

TNT


From Christine Wade  Thu Jun  8 13:52:15 EDT 1995
Article: 6499 of alt.backrubs
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From: Christine Wade 
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
Subject: Re: physical therapist in training will answer questions
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 17:48:55 -0400
Organization: Columbia University
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In-Reply-To:  

 
        Terry,

        A bit harsh weren't you?  I seems to me that this newsgroup
includes the interested layperson, semi-trained/experienced people, and of 
course world-class experts such as yourself.
                                                
        If dampening the growing awareness and interest of a student is
the way you taught your classes, you are certainly not invited to mine.
You'd be surprized what is included in some physical therapy curricula,
and you certainly don't speak for me.

        Christine



From Alise Libman  Thu Jun  8 17:26:54 EDT 1995
Article: 6505 of alt.backrubs
Path: newshost.uwo.ca!torn!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.onramp.net!usenet
From: Alise Libman 
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
Subject: clarification on p.t. in training
Date: 8 Jun 1995 19:00:55 GMT
Organization: On-Ramp; Individual Internet Connections; Dallas/Ft Worth/Houston, TX USA
Lines: 21
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NNTP-Posting-Host: lub08.onramp.net

hey all,

after several letters telling me I have no idea what Im talking about,
and after rereading my own original post, let me try to clarify 
myself.  Yes, as a matter of fact, I HAVE gotten some instruction
in my classes from a progressive prof. or two.  Unless you are in 
my class with me, please don't tell me what I'm taking or not.  Also,
I have taken several outside classes in several areas regarding 
many aspects in therapy.  I also have several books in several areas.
SO...unless I've treated you personally and you thought I sucked, then
don't judge my training.  And if you think I'm not professional enough
for you...don't write me.  I'm only doing this to a) help anyone who
doesn't want to see an m.d. just for advice and b) to get some extra
personal practice in advising people.

That said, I hope that people continue to email me with questions (for
those who already have, thanks alot! :)  ).  For those who think I'm
a lunatic...leave me alone.

Ali :)



From tnt@onramp.net (Terry Norman) Sat Jun 10 09:37:56 EDT 1995
Article: 6517 of alt.backrubs
Path: newshost.uwo.ca!torn!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.onramp.net!turnpike50.onramp.net!user
From: tnt@onramp.net (Terry Norman)
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
Subject: Re: physical therapist in training will answer questions
Date: 10 Jun 1995 06:01:24 GMT
Organization: Acupressure Institute
Lines: 59
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References: <3r00m8$2o2@news.onramp.net>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: turnpike50.onramp.net

In article
, Christine
Wade  wrote:

>  
>         Terry,
> 
>         A bit harsh weren't you?  I seems to me that this newsgroup
> includes the interested layperson, semi-trained/experienced people, and of 
> course world-class experts such as yourself.
>                                                 
>         If dampening the growing awareness and interest of a student is
> the way you taught your classes, you are certainly not invited to mine.
> You'd be surprized what is included in some physical therapy curricula,
> and you certainly don't speak for me.
> 
>         Christine


Christine:

I wouldn't classify what I had to say as a "Flame."  On the contrary,
offering to correspond and share information with Alise doesn't strike me
as being overly harsh, nor trying to dampen her efforts.  In reality, most
PT schools teach the traditional methods which DO focus on the use of
modalities and range of motion exercises as I stated.  Few of them ever
get into Trad. Chinese Med./Acupressure, or spend much time on teaching
and expecting their students to develop massage therapy techniques to be
used on patients.  If they do, it is usually no more than an intro. into
the fundimentals.  Although I have had students that were also PT's who
used the Acupressure techniques I had taught them on their patients with
great success.  And I know of other PT's who take special time with their
patients to use massage and acupressure on them as well as using
traditional physical therapy methods.  So, I am aware that many PT's use
these techniques...though most do not, and most hospitals and Rehab.
centers don't allow it.

I'm certainly not opposed to anyone, layperson, PT student, or MD giving
suggestions to anyone on how to improve their health through the use of
Acupressure and Massage.  But, to place a post on the net stating that
because they are a PT student they can answer questions on
Acupressure/Trad. Chinese Med. and Massage I felt was a bit misleading. 
You should go back and re-read my comments to Alise again.  Perhaps you
read a flame where only professional concern was.  And, if your PT
curriculum includes extensive courses in Acupressure/Trad. Chinese Med.
and Massage Therapy, then consider youself lucky.  I think it's fabulous
that you are getting this information in your classes.

So, before you rush in to rescue a fellow PT student, read the comments
given to them carefully first.  Especially when you're light up your
flamethrower to flame someones butt off.  Also, as you stated that I might
be surprised at what was in your PT curricula, implying that because I'm
not sitting in your classes I have no way of knowing what is and isn't
taught, the same goes for you not knowing how I teach my classes, since
you are not sitting in them to know how I teach.  Careful about making
judgements about others, Christine.  They have a way of coming back and
bitting you on the ass.

Terry