From Ken Sanger  Tue Feb  7 18:29:24 EST 1995
Article: 5212 of alt.backrubs
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
Path: newshost.uwo.ca!torn!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!dog.ee.lbl.gov!newshub.nosc.mil!avalon.chinalake.navy.mil!ken_sanger.chinalake.navy.mil!Ken_Sanger
From: Ken Sanger 
Subject: Massage on Kids -- Results
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Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 23:33:38 GMT
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I posted the following message: 
>>I am trying to get a feel for what others think on full body massages on
>>kids.  I saw this group and would like to get some input from those who
>>perform massages of various types on a regular basis.  My daughter, age
>>7, is receiving full body massages from her step Grandfather.  He does
>>this sometimes in the open, othertimes behind closed doors of his
>>bedroom.  He took a course at a community college and now considers
>>himself to be an expert.  To the best of my knowledge, he does not have
a
>>licence of any type.  The massages cover everything, including her
chest.
>> My daughter (supposedly) is dressed only in underpants.  Is this
>>considered to be normal?  Any comments would be appreciated.

Overview:

One person asked me to post a summary of what I received.  First, I wish
to say that I suspect that I didn't get all the responses that were sent.
 The reason I say this is because I saw responses posted to articles that
I never saw.  I received 10 messages that were directly sent to me.  I,
of course, saw some disscussion on the bulletin board.  Again, I didn't
see all the discussion as my server either missed some of the
discussion(s) or, as is the case some times, I have received the response
prior to the original post. 

Since this is somewhat lengthy, I have the following "sections".  I have
a "Breakdown", which explains my attempts to catagorize the responses
that I directly received.  And I really appreciate the responses.  Next
section (do a search on several dashed lines) are copies of what I was
sent (anonymous, of course).  Third section is the discussion that I
captured from my bulletin board.
--------------------------

Breakdown: 

I was planning to present a nice neat table based upon the following
assumptions.  However, because I feel that I am too close to the problem,
I am going to list the catagories that I seemed to notice that the
respondants fell into.  I then copied the contents of the respondant's
letters (omitting names and most salutary information).  I attempted to
keep the author's thoughts intact. 

The first catagory "It's okay -- no problem" could be summarized as that
society in general has hang-ups with massaing and easily confuses sex and
massages.  Massages, even on kids, are pleasurable for the kid and kids
should not be deprived of it.  However, even this indiviual seemed to
continue that care should be taken (a third person should at least be
present in the next room).  Even here, it is not a good idea to touch
nipples or rub crotches, unless medically required.

The second catagory "It may be okay, but excercise caution" is similar to
the first, except that motives of the massager should be taken into
consideration and that definately a thrid person should be present. 
These indiviuals would also go on to say that if my gut instint indicates
warnign bells and red flags, be prepared to follow my instints.

The third group "Opposed.  Not a good idea" literally is just that.  As a
rule, unless a child has a health problem that requires the attention of
a licensed (as in medically qualified), it is not a good idea.  At a
minimum, make sure a third person is present.

The fourth group "Child abuse in progress" is just that.  One called
the step-grandfather a pedophile.  Another was abused themselves in this
very manner.  Since I have extracted comments from each letter below,
I'll let you make your own determination.
-------------------------------------
The following are from the messages that were sent directly to me.  For
the most part, I copied the letter exactly as is.  I only edited out the
paragraphs so that each paragraph below represents the input from a
single respondant.

The comments received (in order of my receiving them):

First of all, I'd say follow your instincts.  Who else does the man
work on?  How does the daughter feel?  What does she say about the
experience?  Otherwise, there are schools of thought that say even
infant massage is beneficial.

I'd put a stop to them now.  Say whatever it takes.  Your internal
guideline is good; I wouldn't be comfortable with a STEP-grandfather
being intimate behind closed doors with my daughter.

The point is  that a 7-year-old is unable to understand the implications
of a mostly nude massage or give informed consent to it.  And massage for
children is IMO of questionable value _to the child_ unless they are
disabled or handicapped.  Point being the massage may be of more benefit
to her GF, which is not OK.  Even if nothing more than you describe has
happened or will happen, this seems unnecessary for your child.  At a
minimum if this were to continue I would insist it be in the presence of
others and confined to the back.  And I will say the word you don't want
to hear - pedophile.  This type of behavior is always used to soften-up
and accustomize children to touch and private nudity before moving on to
worse things.

Before your situation blows up into a full fledge scandal and impacts on
your daughter negatively, think a few things need to be considered:  Does
your daughter feel comfortable with the situation?  If she feels
'obligated' to let grandpa do this, then it's probably not good; If she
enjoys it and looks forward to it, then it's probably ok.  Does grandpa
'behave' himself -- as far as not being pushy, not getting  involved in
'restricted areas' etc.?  Probably not such a good idea for it to happen
behind closed doors, but care should be taken that it's not an
'exhibition' out in the open.  At 7, there's probably little problem of
the chest being included -- but as the years come along, that will become
a 'problem'!  You probably want to be careful not to radiate negativeness
to the point where you send daughter a message that massage, touching
etc. is 'dirty' - that could badly screw up her relationships in the
future;

Boy, I just gotta respond to this...no it is not appropriate for the
grandfather to totally massage this child behind closed doors.  I massage
children all the time from infants right through high school.  Another
adult, usually a parent (or in the case of adolescents, another friend of
theirs) is always in the room.....The child is draped appropriately at
all times.  Take care of your child!

I am a advanced practice psychiatric nurse and trained family therapist
with quite a bit of knowledge regarding child sexual assault. I believe
that this is what you are concerned about from the tone of your question.
I am also an avid customer of a licensed professional massage therapist,
who does massage my chest (she and I are both female). That said, if you
have any doubts trust them. Non blood relatives have the highest
potential for sexual assault because there is less of the incest taboo
due to the lack of genetic linkage. I am not saying you should totally
disallow the massages but, I think having them done with another adult
around is not inappropriate....This will teach your  daughter that she
has the right to make decisions about her body and have them respected.

I really do think you have a serious reason to be concerned.  That is
typical
behavior of a pedophile.  That supposed grandfather should be questioned
of
his motives.  I am sorry if he is your father or if I have offended you,
but
for the sake of your daughter, I think this needs to be stopped.

I am a licensed massage therapist,  and retired a SCPO,  here in San
Diego....I have only done and continue to do full massage on two children
where the recipients are unclothed and a number of Shiatsu sessions on
clothed children. It is a joy to work on kids and help to stem misuse of
their body posture and movement at such a young age before they get too
locked into habitual stress patterns.  Anyway I feel that the massage
done on the granddaughter is "normal".  It is our society that has made
touching among people "abnormal", this is not to discount the very real
problem of sexual molestation of children. I do recommend that children
be instructed on what is "proper" touching and to report any violation
thereof. Also how do you feel about theGrandfather?  Does he seem
"normal" and balanced, are you comfortable with him around children. It
seems to me most child molesters do not havehealthy sexual relations with
adults, but in this area I am no expert.   "Touchy Area". While there are
powerful muscles in the genital region that often cause problems,
particularly the levator ani and the insertions of the leg adductors, we
were taught that the area is not normally massaged to preclude any
suggestion of impropriety. Working in this area takes a lot of trust.
Furthermore while it is safe to work on the chest, the nipples should not
be touched on either men or women as they are very powerful erogenous
zones.  With the two children that I work who receive nude massage, they
are draped as normal. One or both of the parents were in the next room,
but the massage was done behind closed doors.   Personally I feel that
massage on children requires a lot of trust between the three parties
involved. If you or another adult feel uncomfortable with the grandfather
working on an almost nude young girl you should look into it. Sexual
molestation of children is endemic and very damaging, furthermore it is
usually done among family members of close friends.  However, there is
also quite a witch hunt, consider the tribulations of [one person] and
[second person] here San Diego who were completely innocent but went
through hell anyway despite strong evidence. 

I am replying this way, because I don't want the whole world to know.  I
would get your child out of the situation with the step-grandfather as
soon
as possible.  I too am a former child of such a relationship, and the
massaging can only lead to sex later on in the child's life (if it isn't
already happening now.)  There is no way a grown man should be giving a
child
a full body massage unless he is a certified doctor.  And while you're at
it,
I would report this man to the authorities, and get the child some help. 
Later on, she could become very damaged and bitter in life. 

------------

Because of problems with bulletin boards (at least my end of things), not
all posts appear to have been received, but I thought I would try to
include all that I can so that there can be an honest discussion. -- at
least, I don't wish to hold things back.  The following are the summaries
from the bulletin board:

A partial from the bulletin board (and not part of any letter I received):
>: good god woman, are you nuts? get the child out of there *NOW*! this
guy
>: has absolutely no business touching a young child in this manner. tell
him
>: to go find a girlfriend his own age and practice on her. If anyone
touched
>: my children in this fashion i'd blow their goddamn heads off. then my
wife
>: would remove other parts as well.
>
>: *PLEASE* for the childs sake, stop this situation as fast as possible!

>I was trained in the Esalen style of massage (a variant of Swedish) and
we
>do massage the intercostal muscles between the ribs (chest massage). 
>However, I would never massage a minor without a trusted parent or
>guardian being present, and if it were my daughter I would insist on it. 
>Regardless of how much you trust Grandpa, it's in everyone's interests. 
>Also, be *certain* your daughter is a willing participant.  Don't let
fear
>of hurting Grandpa's feelings keep you from ensuring that *everyone
>involved is comfortable with his practicing.

>When in doubt, trust your feelings.  As the first poster said, just that 
>fact that you are asking if there is anything wrong means something 
>doesn't feel right to you.  Doesn't sound like a fishing expedition to 
>me.  It sounds like a mother who is in touch with something wrong.  It 
>occurs to me that you also might want to call the massage school and ask 
>them what their teaching guidelines are around this kind of behaviour.  
>Any school worth their salt would have the same concerns you do.  

>I only give backrubs as a hobby so I can not speak technoly 
>but I think you have only one option and that is to follow your gut 
>feeling.  Something has set you off and that is enough when it comes to 
>your young daughters security.

In article <3h2kco$hoq@falcon.ccs.uwo.ca> J. Blustein, jamie@csd.uwo.ca
writes:
>>It does appear that you have a very low opinion of MASSAGE...  and a 
>>very strong opinion that all massage must have sexual connotations.
>>Hopefully some of the professionals on here will address that matter.
>
>	If I had two cents for every professional who has posted their
>opinion on that over the years I could probably buy a dedicated hard
drive
>for the archive files.  As with many issues that arise in alt.backrubs
>there is copious material in the archive about many aspects of this
issue.
>This is also in the frequently asked questions list (FAQL).  In entry 2.2
>of the alt.backrubs FAQL (article )
>Winkler answered the question `is massage a sexual technique?'  He went
on
>to write:
>>	One of the hallmarks of a dysfunctional family (one which
>>perpetuates a culture of addiction and dependence) is a deep confusion
>>between affectionate and erotic touch combined with a strong yearning
for,
>>yet fear of, emotional intimacy.  People who have this confusion are
likely
>>to experience any kind of touch as erotic or to use affectionate touch
as a
>>surrogate for forbidden erotic touch.  These same people are likely to
view
>>all nudity as sexual, or more properly, to consider touch, nudity and
sex,
>>as surrogates for the intimacy vacuum associated with the culture.  This
>>forms the subtext for some of the threads that appear periodically in
the
>>newsgroup.  Because most massage, like most body therapies, is hindered
by
>>clothing, and involves touch, this newsgroup periodically attracts the
>>attention of some of these unfortunates.
>	N.B.: The quoted section of the FAQL is almost identical to the
>corresponding section in Winkler's FAQL for alt.backrubs.  I can't take
>credit for writing it although I do admire it.
>
>Also in article  Jim Cooper
> wrote:
>>If the girl feels uncomfortable with grandpa, it's going to show up 
>>soon.  She'll find excuses not to let him do it.  But IF it is all 
>>above board and she enjoys it, why should she be deprived of the 
>>enjoyment and experience because of hysterical reactions?
>	I'm not sure this is true.  I think it is possible that, in the
>context of other events in the child's life, she could feel uncomfortable
>with the massage but unwilling to say no.  If that is so then the problem
>isn't with the massage but rather other aspects of the child's way of
>thinking.  If so, the problem doesn't lie with the massage so much as
>other issues.  Of course this assumes that the massage is all above
board. 

In article <3h4q9j$65h@mercury.dur.ac.uk> Alan Craig,
Alan.Craig@durham.ac.uk writes:
>: good god woman, are you nuts? get the child out of there *NOW*! this
guy
>: has absolutely no business touching a young child in this manner. tell
him
>: to go find a girlfriend his own age and practice on her. If anyone
touched
>: my children in this fashion i'd blow their goddamn heads off. then my
wife
>: would remove other parts as well.
>
>: *PLEASE* for the childs sake, stop this situation as fast as possible!
>
>One of the major symptoms of dysfunctional families is their inability to
>distinguish between sexual and nonsexual touch, to say nothing of the
>violent outcomes of their lack of understanding.

-------------

Personal comments:

I aprreciate those of you who responded.  I have attempted to approach
this debate with an open mind.  It appears to me that a majority of the
respondants think that massaging a child is not a good idea, except
possibly for medical reasons.  And if a massage is to be done on a minor,
it is best that a third person is present.  This is for the protection of
the child and the massager.   Avoid appearance of wrong doing, even if
you are doing nothing wrong. 

I appreciate the support that I have received from you and other friends.
 I plan to monitor this bulletin board to watch whatever debate, if any,
unfolds.  Who knows, I may even occasionally enter into the fracas just
throw gas onto the fire ;-)