INTERVIEW WITH DEBRA VON TRAPP
                        By Sherman H. Skolnick
                 (Transcribed by Brian Francis Redman)


I neither necessarily agree nor disagree with either all or portions
of the following. I invite any persons directly involved to send any
rebuttals to bigxc@prairienet.org -- I am willing to distribute said
rebuttals, provided they are of reasonable length.
          -- Brian Francis Redman, Editor-in-chief, Conspiracy Nation

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[Mr. Skolnick first speaks briefly to Conspiracy Nation, then re-plays
his tape recording of his May 5th, 1995 interview with Ms. von Trapp.]

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
I had sent some faxes of some of our stories to Debra von Trapp. And
she's with Trapp Technologies. And she called me, Friday evening, May
5th, 1995. And I told her I would like to tape a lengthy interview
with her, to use on whatever media I could get it on -- whether on a
radio show, or elsewhere.

And so, this is the interview and discussion that I had with her.

I may pause, from time to time, to -- well, I may have to go back, in
fact, and look in our file and spell some of the names that are
mentioned here, that are complicated. We've got some backup documents
(news stories and so on, that support her story) with complicated
names from where she used to work.

But I'll begin the interview right now. You ready?

CONSPIRACY NATION:
Yeah. It's goin'.

   ======= START OF MR. SKOLNICK'S INTERVIEW WITH VON TRAPP =======

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
What I wanted to find out first are some of the details; why you
believe these things have been happening.

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
You mean which points?

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Well, as I understand... Well, the point is, you have been a high-
level technical expert, sort of on the cutting edge of high
technology. Am I correct?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Yes.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
In the computer field, and you've done work, apparently, worldwide.

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
That's correct.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
In the course of your work, you found out certain things, such as that
some companies were actually committing espionage and so on?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Yes. As an outside consultant to Xerox Corporation, I was selecting
foreign management for a division called Shugart back in the early
'80s in Germany, when I discovered that the Shugart division of Xerox
was, in fact, bringing disk drives -- which were manufactured by
Matsushita in Japan -- they were manufactured there, brought into
Sunnyvale, California, labeled for Shugart, and then sent to the
Shugart Munich facility in Germany, where, after having been received
under Cocomm(?) freight documents (which were legally forwarded in the
U.S.), the freight documents were then changed to show that they were
forwarded to destinations at Olivetti, Italy and a company in France
(which were legal trading partners of the U.S.) when, in fact, the
sales records were being changed and ultimately destroyed by the
Shugart employees -- allegedly, for tax evasion purposes. But, in
fact, the [disk] drives were being put on trucks and sent into the
East Bloc, to an entity called IsoTempex(sp?); they were selling to
the KGB.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So in other words, this was early in the '80s, when it was really
quite unlawful for American companies to be sending hard disk drives
to the Eastern Bloc, am I correct?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
That's correct.

And at the same time, Xerox Corporation was, in fact, conducting CIA
training camp at its Leesburg, Virginia facility.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So some of the big companies in America have been into East-West
espionage.

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Yes. In fact, Aldrich Ames was the chief of Russian counter-
intelligence at the time. And "Rick" Ames and a director of operations
at Xerox/CIA (which was Daniel Starkey), he and Ames and a few senior
officials, both at Xerox and the CIA, were pocketing the cash out of
that operation.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So in other words, there's some angles of the Aldrich Ames spy scandal
that the, has not come out, which you're just mentioning now.

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Right. But in fact, that all connects forward to what we're looking at
today: with some of the same team of people out of CIA and FBI...
Ultimately, that were involved with *all* of these folks.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
In other words, that the Aldrich Ames scandal, they haven't gone into
*this*; there's a lot to it yet, in other words.

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Yes.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Tell me this: in the process of learning about this, this type of
thing, I understand that you became knowledgeable about the fact that
the Japanese have been spying on the Clinton White House. Is that
correct?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
That's correct. But it wasn't outside knowledge; I was inside that
operation. Some of the same people that came out of that Xerox/"Rick"
Ames scenario in the early '80s then transitioned... There's a
specific person, Robert Goetzman, who is a high-ranking FBI official,
who has what is known as "dual agency" -- he operates, also, out of
the CIA -- and had a heavy relationship with Daniel Starkey out at
Xerox.

When I had, ultimately, decided to go to the FBI over what I knew
about Xerox and then discovered that that investigation had been
completely closed. And then I was ultimately threatened -- both myself
and my son -- by Xerox officials and their outside counsel. When they
failed to intimidate me, and I had actually ended up in litigation
with them.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Yeah, I noticed some of the stories from '91 and '92 about your
litigation with Xerox.

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
That actually went up through this year. We were still in federal
court, as of last year, over that.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So in other words, some of these things have been a matter of court
record, but are not too well-known to the public.

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
That's right. And actually, we have *substantial* court records,
between myself and MCA, Mitsubishi, and Xerox, at different times
while they've tried to insure that I wouldn't discuss this with any of
the mainstream media or have the public become knowledgeable about it.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So you are of the opinion that, from what you know, that there's a
tremendous fight between the Washington government and the Tokyo
government -- sort of a financial fight, having to do with the
Yen/Dollar ratio, and so on?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Yes. And that's derivative of the fact that Robert Goetzman, when he
approached me on behalf of Xerox in 1991 to dissuade me, by threat, to
get out of court with them, he did not identify himself as FBI. He
introduced himself as being from the Executive Office of the
President, under Mr. Bush. And ultimately, [he] persuaded me, by
threat, as a trade-off to not having my son killed, to cooperate with
them in introductions to CEOs and chairmen within the computer
industry to be able to view their, what we would know as their "black
hole technology", which was technology and development that was very
advanced, that was not released to the public and was well-ahead of
the government developments in various projects, in many cases. And
that introduction, and that project that we were on, was actually a
national network surveillance project that was partially based out of
an Air Force base in Alabama, and was related to the officers from the
Air Force that were in the downed aircraft in Alabama, two days before
the Oklahoma...

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Yeah. In other words, a day-and-a-half before, on Monday, April 17th,
1995, there was a high-level military group on a military Lear Jet,
that crashed -- apparently... Well, the story in the press said that
they were on their way from Andrews Air Force Base to San Antonio.
But, apparently, the plane blew up, or something happened to it, as
they were over Alabama.

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Yes. Because the same, the Special Ops team that was under Goetzman,
contracted by he and his team, and paid for with Japanese government
funds through MCA Universal and administered through the Embassy of
Japan, in Washington... Some members of a Special Ops team out of
Alabama are responsible -- both for the downing of that craft, and for
taking down the Oklahoma federal building.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Well first of all, you believe that that plane was, crashed and killed
everybody, because of sabotage.

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Yes. And it was specifically set to be downed over Alabama so as to be
recovered within that state.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
I noticed that one of those on board had previously been on the
National Security Agency advisory board, also on the Army Security
advisory board. So that was a top-level espionage person that died in
that crash.

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Right. And also, the person in charge of technical acquisition for the
Air Force, out of Alabama, out of the same base that Goetzman and I
reported into on the national...

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Do you think that the mainstream media should have been aware that
this plane was sabotaged and has covered it up in some way?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
I think that mainstream media, in many cases, is so attached to
government intelligence that they have no choice but to do that. I
know that I was interviewed both by Jim Norman of *Forbes* magazine
during my first revelations over Xerox and Aldrich Ames and Shugart,
in the, I guess around '90 and '91. And his story was killed at *that*
time. He was told to remove his records from his office and forget
that he talked to me. And ironically, he interviewed me last week
about this and the same thing happened to him two days ago.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
In other words, Mr. Norman had interviewed you several years ago?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Yes. I have my original documents of our communication.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
And then the story about a division of Xerox in the spy business was,
his magazine killed that story a couple of years ago?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Yes.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
And you believe that his current story that he's working on, about a
company called Systematics, is likewise gonna be killed?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Yes. And I was specifically informed two days ago that his interview
of me, regarding the Oklahoma City bombing, which I had announced from
my firm to a news service in Washington, the day before it happened...

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Yeah. I understand. You called a very skilled, one of the most skilled
White House journalists -- she's been covering the White House since
[Harry S.] Truman's time -- Sarah McLendon. You left word on her
answering machine the night before the bombing that something... What
did you leave word on?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Well, specifically, what had occurred was, I was watching the
President's press conference. Sarah stood up and said, "Mr. President.
What's going on at the CIA? They're shipping records out of the
building, back to ex-employees."

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Right.

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
And I realized that Sarah had some contact, some awareness, of the
fact that they *were* trying to dump CIA documents out of the
building. Because I was talking, and putting out press releases, and
had specifically had communication both with Clinton's office and with
[Leon] Panetta's office and with Janet Reno and with Paul Coffey.
[Unclear] the chief of the organized crime and racketeering section,
and had told him that I was going to go public with this information.
And suddenly, the CIA is emptying the building. And Sarah [McLendon]
noticed this. So, as the press conference was going on, I got on her
telephone, and on her voice mail, and explained to her that I *knew*
what was wrong with the CIA, proceeded to tell her the background on
both the Xerox and the Japanese, that situation: what had happened as
far as the Japanese and Robert Goetzman and a team of people related
to Systematics, actually, this banking software expert, Jim Cofield,
and a CIA communications expert named Jerry Thomlinson(?).

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Yeah... Thomlinson's background. He's really into very high tech in
respect to devices that could be used for audio and visual
surveillance.

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Right. In fact Thomlinson and I were together with Goetzman on the
"bugging" of the Perot petitions committee. Thomlinson actually was
setting up the town hall meetings, and Perot didn't know that he was
actually "bugging" them, on behalf of the CIA. And Goetzman had me
volunteer for a few weeks [unclear] with Thomlinson while he was doing
this.

And, but to get back to Sarah [McLendon], what I left on her voice
mail, the background on the story: And I said, "Sarah, our government
was responsible for the gas attack in the Japanese subway. And there
is an impending attack; there will be a bombing of a U.S. federal
building, in retaliation for that."

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
How do you suppose that they... In other words, from your sources, you
suspected that there was something like that gonna happen?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Well now I didn't suspect anything; others, in the middle of the
operation, knew exactly who paid for this, who contracted it, and who
did it -- I... -- firsthand knowledge of this operation. And what I've
been trying to *explain* to people is that I am not... Although I am
an analyst for a *living* in my own industry, I, in fact, was in the
middle of this operation. And the reason why I'm still sitting here,
alive, today is because last year, they tried to kill me. I survived
the attack. They actually took me out of my house. And two sheriff's
deputies found me, 100 miles from my home, barely alive.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
In other words, you're very brave to come public with this, and to
discuss this.

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Well what I did was, subsequent to my surviving that attack, they had
a lot of contact with me after that, while I thought I was trying to
turn them in to Janet Reno. And we were fighting, or in-fighting if
you will. And I recorded all their telephone conversations.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
In other words, you were very brave in speaking out about these
things. And you feel that that sort of work that you got involved in,
that some in your team had something to do with arranging the tragedy
regarding the Oklahoma building.

Who do you suspect was involved with that?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
I know exactly who did it. What had happened was, I, along with Robert
Goetzman, an FBI employee, Peter Stanley, a CIA employee named Wes
Thomas, out of New York, a DIA employee named Jim Cofield, who is a
banking communications software transfer specialist out of Washington,
D.C.... This team of people, when Bush lost the election, we
transitioned from the project we were on, to being paid (although *I*
was never paid -- they were paid) by the Japanese government through
the Embassy of Japan in Washington to set up a surveillance operation
on the Clinton administration. And essentially what we did was, we
arranged to have a CIA employee that was left at the White House, in
an office administration, named Dale Helm, issue all of the Clinton
administration's purchase orders out of the Executive Office to all of
their front companies. Robert Goetzman had Joint System Support, Ltd.
Peter Stanley had ValCom(?). Jim Cofield had UniTech(sp?) and
Kayjax(?) Engineering in Washington, D.C. And Wes Thomas used his
[unclear] PR firm [unclear] Karen Thomas, who operates in the computer
industry, Thomas & Associates. And all of those entities, together,
processed, procured, and delivered the software and the hardware under
the first purchase orders issued out of the administration.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
In other words, they re-equipped the White House when Clinton came in
as the new President...

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Right.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
...and you were in with the team that was involved with that?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Yeah. In fact, I helped procure a lot of the software and some of the
hardware on that. And basically, what we did was we put [unclear]
motherboards into the new Executive Office computers, put all-new
software in there. Peter Stanley sold Hillary her MacIntosh. We sold
*all* of the software that was delivered to the Democratic National
Committee -- about a half-million dollars worth, although they only
paid about $52,000 for it.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
I understand that when, some television sets were arranged, uh --what
was it? -- for the inauguration?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
That's right. Goetzman had, he gave me the name and phone number of an
officer of Mitsubishi electric, in Anaheim, California. And I called
in. And what they did was, they put three Mitsubishi 60-inch
televisions on a truck, trucked them to the Lincoln Memorial. Peter
Stanley and Robert Goetzman met the delivery, lifted the screens, and
put in transponding units -- video/audio transponding. They rolled
them in to the V.I.P. tent, where Clinton was waiting during his
appearances at both the Lincoln Memorial and then, again, at the
Capital Center in Maryland. We trucked the TVs from one location to
another.

And from the very moment that he was President, he was spied on by the
Japanese government, and all his communications were compromised.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Didn't the Secret Service or any of them... In other words, was there
some connivance with the Secret Service so that they...

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Oh! Specifically, one specific Secret Service person that cooperated
entirely. And that person was the gentleman that was bounced out of
the White House when I finally surfaced with [Walter] Mondale on all
of this information in October of '94.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Yeah, I saw that you had faxed some things to Mondale's office as the
Ambassador to Tokyo [i.e., Ambassador to Japan].

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Right. And Mondale, instead of going through... You noticed that the
last communication I had with him was the day before the trade
sanctions were supposed to go into effect. Then, notably, they never
*did* go into effect.

Mondale and Mickey Kantor then went back to the White House, had
conversations with Clinton. That Secret Service agent was bounced out
of the White House; he had been there under Bush and then with
Clinton. And he was sent back to the Secret Service office at Oklahoma
City.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
And that's the one that died there, with the bombing?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Yeah. And in fact, they made sure that he was in the building that
morning, before they set the bomb off. That was specifically intended
by the Japanese government who had, again, paid for and contracted
this. It was a "message" back.

And April 19th is not the significant date on this. It was April
*20th* in Japan. It was one month, *to* *the* *day*, of the subway
attack -- which was March 20th.

And then Clinton and Hillary sat in front of his widow and daughter at
the memorial service. If you check video of even the memorial service
that was held for the city, that Clinton attended, his widow and
daughter are seated directly behind them.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So that, in other words, Clinton... You believe that the President has
some knowledge of what's going on?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
The President has direct knowledge! I mean, I've had... The White
House has had direct communication with me. Which is why you see the
White House counsel faxes back to me -- if you've seen cover sheets on
that?

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Yes.

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
That, [clears throat] excuse me, they... We sent in a complete
discussion about what they were going to do about these circumstances,
and the fact that the Japanese had "bugged" the White House and the
DNC [Democratic National Committee] and the District of Columbia
essentially, on the operation that I was on. I thought I was turning
everybody in to Janet Reno. And then she turned the investigation over
to Paul Coffey, and he killed the investigation!

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
How long ago was that?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
She started the investigation July 25th of '94. And by August, Coffey
had killed it. And he instructed his office that, if I called in, that
his office staff was to hang up on me.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
When I finish here, I think, if you want to fax that to me, those
cover sheets I think I have *not* seen. But I'd like to get them, if
possible.

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Okay. Yes. I have all this documented.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
I have my other line on the fax (I don't always have it on), on 5742.

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Okay.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
And if you could fax it in, I have that machine on.

Tell me this, Ms. von Trapp: you (How could I put this?)... I'm sure
the public would like to know: You felt, for some reason, that it was
proper, or your unit felt it was proper, for this surveillance of the
incoming, new, President, since he got into office? Or what was the
logic behind it?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
You see, I am outside of this. I owned a consulting firm that was
taken over by the FBI and CIA, without any choice on my part, because
I had crossed Aldrich Ames, and Daniel Starkey at Xerox, early on in
my career. And then they had come back and tried to take everything
from me, including my house. Then they threatened to kill myself and
my child.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Yeah, I noticed that Xerox got into a big fight with you, and tried to
take...

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Right. And filed a false lawsuit against me in a northern
California court, and told the judge they owned the mortgage on
my house...

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Yeah. I saw that. So, in other words... So you were intimidated to
continue working in that circle, although maybe you personally didn't
approve of what was going on?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
I didn't have any choice at the time. And so, what I thought was that
(since I *didn't* have a choice) I would stay inside the operation.
And eventually, I'd be able to take them -- since I *knew* I was
inside something that was worse than Watergate --that eventually, I
could just turn them in to the Justice Department and...

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Well at the time, in other words, you had confidence in Janet Reno.

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Exactly.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
But, in other words, do you have that confidence now?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Not at all. In fact, I fax and call Janet Reno on a regular basis. My
last fax to her was, asking her how she's ever going to explain to the
American public that she's a willing baby killer, that is not
disclosing the truth about what went on here. And I asked her, what
Paul Coffey must have on her, what he was blackmailing her with, to
allow her, as attorney general, to turn her head to this entire
compromise of White House communications, and to allow certain federal
agents to continue at this activity.

I'm *blatant* in my hostility and in my aggressive questioning of
what's going on at the White House and the Justice Department right
now.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
In other words, you think they're being blackmailed or intimidated,
themselves?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
I think Janet Reno... Paul Coffey is "old guard". He's been there,
under the Bush administration (which was, effectively, CIA). And I
think that, somehow, they have compromised Miss Reno, to place her in
a position where she *has* no authority at the Justice Department.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Well some people... Yeah. There's documents came out in the Inslaw
case, contending that there's a secret unit in the Justice Department
that commits domestic and foreign political murders! And that was a
rebuttal by the Inslaw group to a report that came out, called "The
Bua Report".

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Well, Robert Getzman called me the night that Vince Foster died --
excited, screaming over the phone, "We *did* him! We *did* him!" And I
said, "Did *who*?" And he said, "Vince Foster." And I said, "What do
you mean?" And he said, "We *did* him!" And I said, "Well *where* did
you 'do' him?" And he said, "Well we did him somewhere else, but we
dumped him in a 'queer' park to send Clinton and his 'queer' wife a
message!"

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Yeah. That's one thing that, that people that know about Fort Marcy
Park know it's a place that homosexuals like to hang out.

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
And I had no knowledge of that, hadn't been to Washington to, you
know, understand what was going on.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So there's been a vast cover-up of *that*.

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Exactly.

And Cofield is the banking expert that was involved with the banking
issues surrounding Inslaw. And you'll see quite a parallel between my
documentation on the standardization and transmission of the documents
out of, that were created -- all the communications created out of the
White House and the kind of transmission capability that was created
out of the banking software for the Inslaw case.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So in other words, on the one hand the Japanese, Mitsubishi and
others, apparently have been spying on the Clinton administration...
What is the rationale for them spying on the Clinton White House?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Well, at the time that Clinton took office, there was a tremendous
trade war going on. And you'll see that our media was just *full* of
stories and hostility about the economic pressure that the Japanese
were bringing to bear on the U.S. economy, and the great imbalance in
trade. And we were actually holding talks with the "multiple Prime
Minister" of the week, since four changed hands in one year over in
the Japanese government.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
In other words, Clinton was like an isolationist President, wanted to
emphasize domestic instead of foreign affairs or something?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
No. They didn't know *what* his card would be. But what they knew for
certain is that the Japanese were taking too much pressure from even
the previous administration. And this real gravy train, CIA-funded
project, under Bush, that this team I was with conducted -- directly
out of the Executive Office of the President; it was a multi-
jurisdictional team that had no other reporting authority except Bush
-- had just a *ton* of cash to spend. I mean, these were federal
government employees, walking around in $1200 suits, eating $100
lunches, and never thinking twice about spending money. And suddenly,
Bush lost the election; they lost their project. They talked about
doing a surveillance project on behalf of the CIA on Clinton. And
ultimately, that didn't pan out. So this team decided -- that we had
already been in the Japanese embassy, doing other things; or they had
had some contact -- and basically decided to go to work for the
Japanese government.

MCA Universal, again, which is a wholly-owned subsidiary of
Matsushita, which also was the manufacturer of the Shugart [disk]
drives for Xerox and...

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Right. The ones that went to the Eastern Bloc, illegally.

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
So the same entity, the Japanese government, came in. Goetzman and the
team carried MCA Universal business cards, with their name on them!

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
MCA, according to some published accounts, has a long, criminal-
enterprise past with what Americans would call "the Mafia". That's
been published.

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Yes.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So, in other words, with Matsushita taking them over, it wasn't that
unusual! And *now*, nine days before the Oklahoma bombing, another
criminal enterprise (at least, *some* people believe that about the
Bronfmans) took over MCA from Matsushita.

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Yes.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So in other words, it's a criminal enterprise.

Do you believe that the...

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Ironically, the storage facility, which is Japanese Intelligence-owned
(it's called DataLok), in southern California, 65 miles *below* the
Universal City, where MCA Universal is, just after the subway attack
and just before the Oklahoma City bombing, MCA Universal moved all of
its corporate records out of its building and into the DataLok
facility in Tucston(?), California. Now the DataLok facility was the
same place that Goetzman and I, and Stanley and Cofield and everyone
else, we shipped all the equipment that ultimately ended up in the
White House and the Democratic National Committee and the District of
Columbia -- the "bugged" equipment -- it first was shipped from the
manufacturers into DataLok in Tucston, California, and then *re-
shipped* to all the other destinations.

And so then MCA, in between the gas attack and the bombing, moved all
their corporate records into DataLok. And I hope you're sitting down
and holding onto your desk: because DataLok currently stores *all*
*the* *secure* *documents* *for* *Hughes* *Aircraft* and some of its
divisions that...

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Really! [laughs]

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
...a year-and-a-half ago for our national security. Our very
contracts, our government's most sensitive contracts with Hughes
Aircraft, are, in fact, sitting in the same storage facility with MCA
Universal's records. And the Japanese government and Japanese
intelligence... And they've got their run of anything they want to
read at any time of day or night.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Well, in the Hitachi case, some years ago, what came out was, Hitachi
executives felt justified in spying on IBM because it was not against
Japanese law for a Japanese national to spy on another country for
industrial purposes.

So I guess they... You feel that that's the rationale for what the
Japanese have done? Or...

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Well, I think they benefited greatly by completely compromising White
House communications. Not only did they know everything the country
was doing with everybody else, every other government, every
transaction, every plan they had regarding the trade talks or
sanctions or anything else. They, simply, had great leverage over
Clinton.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Do you think that we, in turn -- our American CIA or the National
Security Agency -- do you think we, in turn, have been spying on them,
both here and overseas?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
I don't think we had that kind of access. I think they had our
government exactly where they wanted them. For the last two years, the
Japanese government has had the upper hand in this situation entirely.

In fact, MCA is so worried about me knowing all of that information
regarding the Executive Office "bugging" project and the storage of
DataLok records, and the fact that they have the Hughes Aircraft
secure documents in their storage facility, that they actually bought
the neighbor out, across the street from my home, and -- literally --
the Japanese government and MCA Universal, one of their directors, is
sitting 55 feet from my front door. Sitting out there to intimidate
me!

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
From a historical standpoint, *that* is what espionage people have
done. Although those not familiar with espionage would be skeptical
about the story, I'm not skeptical because I know of other examples
where that very thing is done.

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
I wish someone would just come over, and knock on the door in front of
my house and ask them what they're doing there! The director walked
out of the door one morning, handed me a business card, and said,
"Quit talking to the Justice Department. Call Robert Goetzman." I
mean, I've dealt with this *every* *day* since November of '94 when,
after they had kicked that Secret Service agent back from the White
House, back to Oklahoma City, and Paul Coffey had instructed his staff
not to talk to me anymore, I have been sitting here, with the Japanese
government and MCA sitting across the street from me, *every* *day*,
telling me to be quiet!

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So that, the bombing of the Oklahoma building was sort of a
"symbolism", which is understood by those that have been involved in
espionage -- am I correct?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Exactly. What happened was, the Japanese government paid for that.
They footed the bill, and MCA Universal actually dispersed the funds.
Goetzman and his associates contracted that bombing. The bombing was
actually conducted by a few, specific individuals on a Special Ops
team out of a base in Alabama -- not acting on behalf of the United
States government -- acting on behalf of Goetzman and his team.

And that's why you see that that jet got downed over Alabama as well.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
It appears, from the circumstances and the witnesses, that the plane
may have been bombed. There were several explosions of the plane in
the air, before it hit the ground.

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
The plane *was* bombed.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Well, that's what it appears, from the eyewitnesses. There were
explosions in the plane, before it hit the ground. And that would be a
bombed aircraft.

Tell me this: has there been other violence? Some of us suspect that,
a few days later, there was a strange helicopter crash in Texas that
seems also related to the Oklahoma City bombing.

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Well, I've seen some initial data on that. But that's nothing I have
first-hand knowledge on.

What I can tell you is, I have first-hand knowledge on the things...

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Tell me this: who do you believe the job was contracted out to, as to
the Oklahoma City bombing?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
A few individuals that are, presently, still-active military Special
Operations, out of a base in Alabama.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
What base?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
I know, I know the base and I know an individual holding the name,
rank, and serial numbers of the actual people that were contracted...

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
What base is that, if we may know?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
...and I'm... That information is only being given back to Secretary
[of Defense] Perry at this point.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK: {1}
I see. But the point is... Is it your opinion that the citizens'
militias, that the President and others accuse, may not be involved in
this at all?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
They had nothing to do with it. And I can tell you that from first-
hand knowledge. They had absolutely nothing to do with that.

And in fact... Once they (because they know -- and the FBI *knew* who
took that building down, and understood that they had to create a
cover story), they panicked. And because they didn't know *where* the
target was going to be -- they knew it was going to happen, as I did.
But once it *did* happen, and they understood who the responsible
parties were, their cover story... They attempted to make up this
story about this Ryder truck and the look-alike bombing to New York
City [World Trade Center bombing], to pin it on the Middle East. But
nothing they could feed the American public or the media would add up
to that.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Well I noticed that Israel immediately sent in one of their assets,
who's with CBS network, Dan Raviv. He co-authored a book praising
Mossad. And he, suddenly, was broadcasting *for* CBS from Oklahoma
City, after the bombing. He's a Mideast expert. I found it very odd
that he suddenly was sent in there. He's sort of an asset of Israeli
Intelligence.

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Yeah.

And that just didn't, it didn't gel. They couldn't do much with it,
after about 48 hours.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So in other words, your opinion is, from your work and how you got
involved in espionage by way of -- because they intimidated you --
that...

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
I didn't get paid for any of those White House deliveries or, you
know. I mean, I watched them do it!

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
In other words, you were coerced into it because of the details that
you've given me here.

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
I contracted the deliveries. That's what I did for them.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So the point is, you think that the higher-ups -- Janet Reno, the
President himself, and so on -- have a good, working knowledge of what
is behind the bombing and are not telling the American people.

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
They knew *exactly* what had happened. And what they did, with
McVeigh, is -- the Middle East story wasn't going to work. So,
someone pointed out that they had this guy in custody and...

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
He's sort of a "patsy", Lee Harvey Oswald style.

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Basically, what happened is, they decided to put out just a sketch of
him. And you've noticed, they haven't produced any tape or anything
else for the American public -- can't come up with the John Doe #2.
{2}.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
I've interviewed explosives experts. And they laugh at the
government's explanation of a fertilizer bomb doing that piece of
work.

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
There's no possibility of that at all. First of all, I can tell you
from first-hand knowledge that Special Ops team did that bombing, and
did a different kind of bomb altogether. Secondly, anyone with even a
cursory knowledge of bombing, you know, and not too sophisticated of a
knowledge at all, will understand that their description of that bomb
does not mesh with the action of that bomb.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Right. We spent about 4-and-a-half months, in 1992, interviewing
Michael Riconosciuto, a computer and explosives expert, when he was in
the jail in Chicago awaiting grand jury testimony. And he described to
us EHT, "Blue Death", which some other explosives experts are now
describing as more likely, from the circumstances, was the device used
to take down the Murrah Building.

Tell me this: you feel the highest level of our government knows about
this. What do you think is gonna be the outcome? In other words, your
opinion is that, as part of this problem between the Washington and
the Tokyo governments, that our espionage people instigated those
poison gas attacks in Japan?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
My specific knowledge is that a military team produced that gas attack
in retaliation for compromise of White House communications, which is
a military responsibility and was compromised by the Secret Service
agent and Robert Goetzman and the CIA employee, Dale Helm, who is
still at the White House as we speak.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Where is Goetzman these days? Does anybody know?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Yeah. I actually have his home address in _______, _______. Would you
like it?

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Yes.

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Okay. Because I think the American public ought to go visit him, knock
on his door and ask him if he thinks it's okay to kill babies in
Oklahoma City.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
What is his address?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
{3}.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
You happen to have a phone number for him?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
I did. But he disconnected it.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Yeah, I understand.

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
I *do* have a phone number for Jim Cofield...

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Well... Yeah. Give it to us. We'll utilize it in some way, in an
interview or something.

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
{4}.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Let's see if we can summarize this: Because of your background in very
high technology, you got involved in certain projects. You were
intimidated into it. And part of those projects were the "bugging" of
the Clinton White House. In fact, going all the way back to the
inaugural get-togethers.

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
I still have the televisions! The inaugural committee... Mitsubishi
and Goetzman abandoned the TVs on the sidewalk at the Lincoln
Memorial. It rained on them. A truck backed into them. The inaugural
committee called me and demanded that I remove the debris. So I agreed
to take responsibility for it. And they shipped them over to the
Washington Naval Shipyard, and then put 'em on a United Van Lines
truck (which is the official carrier for the President). And, at their
expense, trucked them back to me in Irvine, California, and dumped
them in my driveway!

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So how is it... Do you believe that Clinton -- because he and his wife
are considered a "CIA couple" in an upcoming book that's gonna
describe them. {5}. Do you believe that Clinton, early on, had a
reason to understand this? And either didn't resist it or didn't
combat it? Or what?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Well, I went to Stephanopoulos, initially. And for quite awhile, I
communicated with his office, and he sent messages back to me through
his administrator and... And all that time, I thought he was doing
something with it. And then he told me that he thought that I was
making it up, and he killed the information.

So ultimately, I don't think Clinton actually knew that I seriously
was discussing it with them and that he should pay attention to it
until, probably, early August of '94. And then at that time I think he
knew it and didn't know what to do about it, because he was in such a
mess. And ultimately, what happened was that he had no way out and was
confronted with Mondale and Mickey Kantor in October of '94. And then
his solution was simply to clean up White House communications, bounce
that Secret Service agent back to Oklahoma City, and then try to cut
me off.

And they actually had the DNC [Democratic National Committee] send me
two checks, in December, for a total of $8900, which I assume they
believe was going to be payoff money. But when you consider the damage
they've done to my company and all the litigation I was in with Xerox,
and then defending myself against Mitsubishi and MCA... {6}.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So in other words...

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
I lost everything I had! $8900 wasn't gonna pay my phone bill!

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Some feel that Clinton has this habit of looking the other way, or
*appearing* to look the other way, on really "dirty projects", such as
the Mena, Arkansas dope shipments. In other words, he was the
Governor, and he would have us believe that he didn't see anything or
didn't need to see anything. Is that sort of like what's happening
now?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Yeah. Well then, he wanted to be President. And now, he has a bigger
problem: they killed Vince Foster right in front of him. And then,
they've indicted Hillary; she was indicted on two counts, for the
Whitewater thing, on April 16th. She was served on April 22nd.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So you feel that the grand jury actually met on Sunday, the 16th,
rather than on Monday, the 17th, that our story says.

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Well, that was *my* first-hand information, that the indictment
actually came down that day, and that it was served on the 22nd.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
By Kenneth Starr, in the White House.

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Right. And so now, he has a bigger problem: his wife's indicted. And
she's about to be indicted for perjury, under a third indictment. And
he needs to be able to trade something. So maybe if he trades the
American public and babies in Oklahoma, he can keep he and his wife in
the White House.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Tell me this: what do you think, under the circumstances, is gonna
happen further? In other words, there is this terrible violence
between the Tokyo and the Washington government -- where do you
suspect or predict that it might go?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Well, the way I was helped was, I went to the military and to
Secretary [of Defense] Perry. And I had done that early on, concurrent
with my communications even, early, with the Japanese and with
Stephanopoulos back in March of '94.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
And you kept very meticulous records of all these things?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Yeah, I have.

And so what occurred out of that was, Perry had an individual call me
back and explain that all my documents have been given to a man that
was the Assistant Secretary of Defense --coincidentally, John Deutch.
And so, then...

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Do you have confidence in him as, I believe he's in the process of
becoming the new director of Central Intelligence. You have confidence
in him? Or...

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Yeah. Because I think Perry arranged to have him moved over, to clean
up the CIA. And what's fortunate is, one of the people on that downed
aircraft, in Alabama, was, in fact, a good friend of Perry's... And
so, you know, that was a retaliatory act for, against Perry as well,
for him moving, you know, or arranging to have Woolsey go out of the
CIA, have Deutch go over there. It was an "answer back" to the fact
that Deutch is inevitably going to be director of CIA.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
What do you suppose would happen if the mainstream media -- which we
call the "news fakers" -- were to actually, simply state what is
*known* about what you're discussing here today? What would happen?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
I think there would be a tremendous backlash in the United States
against both the previous administration -- not necessarily... well,
the Clinton administration but certainly all those persons that have
remained, that were there under the Bush/CIA era.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
In other words, some people feel that the Clinton Justice Department
is still heavily Bush...

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Yeah.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
...and that the CIA is still Bush, and therefore, Clinton has a
tremendous problem.

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Right. They need to take at least about a minimum of another 25
people, top-down, out of the CIA that were associated with Ames and
Bush.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Do you predict that there might be further violence between the Tokyo-
Washington problem?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Yeah. And I think that, if this were all to come to light, that the
American public would understand why our economy, and American jobs,
and everything else that's been affected by the Japanese influence and
the Japanese trade, has taken place. And I think that there would be a
tremendous backlash and an effort by Americans to take America back
*for* Americans, and not for political interests and the Japanese
government and the CIA.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
But is there a possibility that there is an isolationist faction in
the United States that wants to blame Japan, perhaps not -- in other
words, some might say, falsely? Is there that possibility?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
No. I don't think so at all. I think that there's simply a lot of
anti-Japan sentiment over the way our economy's been affected, and the
fact that there's this underlying, major problem with the Japanese
government, Japanese Intelligence, and its infiltration and control
and complicity with a certain upper-management group of employees,
federal employees, in the CIA and the FBI.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So in other words, there's a highly-sophisticated *war* going on,
between Japan and the United States, unlike the Second World War and
generally unknown by most of the American people! But the media won't
cover it! I mean, they're... they'll pooh-pooh you. You saw the latest
issue of *Time* magazine, in a sentence or two, tried to pooh-pooh the
Japanese connection, as if there's nothing behind it! {7}. And from
what you say, there appears to be quite a bit behind it.

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
When... I didn't even see what *Time* wrote about it. Why were they
alluding to a Japanese connection at all?

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Because of the militia statement, by Commander Olson and the Citizens'
Militia of Michigan jumped the gun and, without realizing there's a
factual background to the thing, demoted him. But *now*, I think they
realize they made a mistake and that your information was quite
correct.

And *Time* magazine refers a little bit to that in their current issue
and pooh-poohs the whole idea of a Japanese connection. You see what
I'm saying?

Of course it was *Time* magazine that, years ago, said that "Oswald
did it", so, I mean [laughs]. You know what I mean? Those of us that
are *knowledgeable* -- you know what I mean. But the point is, the
general public is *not* knowledgeable. And at least in the Midwest, we
want to *make* 'em knowledgeable if we can get you on video and then
use it on our show. Is that possible?

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Is your show live?

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
No. It's taped, and then cable-cast a couple weeks later.

DEBRA VON TRAPP:
So if I taped something now, and got it to you, when would it be
broadcast?

SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
*Probably* not sooner than two weeks. We might switch around our
schedule and have the cable-casting group put your show on in place
for something that's already scheduled. In other words, we're already
scheduled for cable-casting until the end of May. But we can switch,
if there's something very urgent, we can switch something in there,
and put this show on, which, of course, is *extremely* timely.

   =========== END OF SKOLNICK'S INTERVIEW OF VON TRAPP ============

SKOLNICK ADDS:
Please note: she claims she's got a video tape where a director of
MCA, the one that somehow, mysteriously, now lives right across the
street from her -- uh, she confronted this director and said, "How
many babies did you arrange to kill in Oklahoma with that bombing?"
And the director, reportedly, said, "Twenty."

If, in fact, there is such a video tape, it'd be dynamite, and we
would probably run it on our cable access television show.

My opinion is that this must come before the American people as
quickly as possible!! To save Ms. von Trapp's life. I think she's a
very brave woman, and something here rings true about the thing.

And I commend all of those (including you) that will help get
this before the American people, or even overseas, to save this
woman's life and to show what is behind these terrible events in
our times.

   ---------------------------<< Notes >>---------------------------
{1} Skolnick stops the tape to interject at this point:
   "I would like to insert here, I believe that base is Gunther Air
Force Base in Alabama."

{2} Skolnick stops the tape to interject at this point:
   "Let me insert something here: there is a television station
manager in Oklahoma (let's see if I have his name here) who contends
that he has got video tape, proving -- this is KPOC TV, Ponca,
Oklahoma. His name is David Hall, and he's the television station
manager. (405) 767-8827. And others that have talked to him, that I
know about... David Hall contends that they've got video tape and
other proof, from his television station, that Timothy McVeigh was
*not*, as the government contends, arrested on a traffic violation an
hour-and-a-half after the Oklahoma City bombing, but in fact was
arrested for the first time on Friday, April 21st, '95. If David
Hall's, what he contends, that he's got some proof -- video tape -- is
correct, then the whole Timothy McVeigh story would fall apart."
   "I have no personal knowledge of it, but it would not surprise me
that the whole McVeigh thing is a fraudulent story by Janet Reno and
the President, because they *do* know the truth, as Ms. von Trapp is
setting it forth."
   "And there's something about Ms. von Trapp's story that leads me to
think that it is quite correct! It rings true."

{3} Regarding Goetzman's address: bearing in mind that, in this
country, a person is innocent until proven guilty (something which
many supposedly "professional" journalists have shockingly forgotten
vis a vis Timothy McVeigh), I will provide the address to responsible
journalists and investigators wishing to make polite inquiries.
   Worth mentioning also, regarding the press: President Clinton has
asked that you "call up short" the "purveyors of paranoia". Well?
Where are you on this von Trapp testimony? *Your* *silence* *is*
*deafening*. When will the mainstream press be following up on this
story? Soon, I hope. After all, you don't want any "fragile minds"
beginning to think that what von Trapp is saying could be true!
   Hey media!! Where are you guys!? When will we see you following up
on this story?

{4} Regarding Cofield's phone number: I will provide same to
responsible journalists and investigators wishing to make polite
inquiries.

{5} "...because he [Clinton] and his wife are considered a 'CIA
couple' in an upcoming book..." Could refer to *Passion & Betrayal* by
Gennifer Flowers.

{6} MCA. There is an interesting book about MCA by an author by name
of Dan Moldea. My recollection of a recent e-mail from a CN reader is
that the name of the book is something like *Dark Victory*.

{7} From *Time* magazine, May 8, 1995: "...the militia stripped Olson
of his command last Friday after he sent inflammatory faxes to the
news media blaming the Oklahoma explosion on the Japanese government."

      Brian Francis Redman    bigxc@prairienet.org    "The Big C"
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         Coming to you from Illinois -- "The Land of Skolnick"
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