OOBE CLASS/CONFERENCE
May 10, 1994     10pm - 11:30 EST

(NEWAGE FORUM -- Room 12)
(Transcript follows....)
=======================================================
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) Without further ado....let's begin...
                        please hold your questions until...
                        I open the floor for questions. GA Don!
(12-27,Don D.) Thanks, Rilla...
                        First, I want to thanks everybody...
                        for showing up and taking an interest in the class!...
                        I've prepared some things I'd like to say....
                        hopefully not to exceed 10 minutes...
                        then we can take questions....
                        First, I want to state the purpose of this class...
                        and that is to *broadly* cover the OBE....
                        As I said in the notes....
                        both theory and practice are important...
                        and we will cover both here....
                        Next, I want to state the goal of this class...
                        and that is that I want everyone who really...
                        wants to learn to astral project to REALLY LEARN...
                        wants to learn to astral project....
                        So, in this spirit, I want to say that...
                        even thgough I have created a schedule of what...
                        we shall cover in this class...
                        I feel your learning needs are more important...
                        than sticking to any kind of rigid schedule..
                        so, we shall be rather loose about things...
                        if need be....
                        A couple more things...
                        One, I want to say that your dreams are...
                        very important to this whole enterprise...
                        Second, I want to repeat how important it is...
                        to keep a journal of your experiences...
                        Finally ...
                        Tonight's topic is "Occult Ideas"...
                        and I want to briefly stress, what I think are the...
                        important ideas in the reading assignment...
                        There are 4 ideas...
                        1. Occultists teach that our consciousness...
                        is NOT created by our physical body..
                        but that it transcends our physical body...
                        2.  Occultists teach about the planes of nature...
                        and I want everybody to understand what these planes
                        are...
                        Occultists teach that we each have "bodies"...
                        or vehicles corresponding to these planes...
                        and that it is these bodies we are using when ...
                        we have OOBEs/astral projections...
                        and 4. that occultists explain ...
                        astral prjecting as being a process...
                        very much like tuning a radio into a radio station...
                        execpt when you project...
                        you are tuning your consciousness into one
                        of the planes.
                        So, that's it for my into remarks...
                        Let's open up the floor!
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) okay...
                        First, Steven E. GA
(12-32,Steven Estrada) ok
                        I'm a litytle scared about *inducing* for
                        lack of a better word...
                        I read all about the emotional part and am scared
                        I may get in trouble...
                        since I'm under a lot of emotional stress lately...
                        What do yoiu think Don....  GA
(12-27,Don D.) Boy, Steve! We couldn't have picked a better starting
                        question! First, the OBE itself is NOT sccary...
                        as I said, fear is an initial part of the experiecne...
                        but goes away naturally with increasing experience...
                        However, if you are under emotional stress...
                        of any kind, its best not to bite off anything new...
                        especially playing around with altered states of
                        consciousness...
                        until you work your life into a more comfortable situation.
                        
(12-32,Steven Estrada) ? (follow up question)
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) sure...one 
(12-32,Steven Estrada) ok only 1 for now...
                        I play with altered states of conscious all the time...
                        especially being out of a job...
                        So I WANNA do this as part of my spiritual training...
                        And I'm gonna no matter what anyone sez (stubborn Steve)...
                        Perhaps it would be wise to say a prayer 1st...
                        like I do for protection FROM the astral world...
                        when I meditate....
                        What do you think about that?...
                        Espacially the pasrt about prayers...
(12-27,Don D.) Steve, God gave us a will...
(12-32,Steven Estrada) to keep astral being away...
(12-27,Don D.) but he (she it?) also gave us brains...
                        and the brains are there so we can create and reflect...
                        the harmony of God's being in our own lives.
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) okay...
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) next is Michael P
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) GA
(12-5,Michael Pagano) ok
(12-5,Michael Pagano) Don, five years ago I went under the gas at the
                        dentists office...
                        I entered this state where I felt this was the
                        real state and the one..
                        I left was nothing and all my worries were
                        REALLY trivial..
                        I have never been able to feel this way again
                        after that experience...
                        Any ideas where I was..?  Thanks in advance. GA
(12-27,Don D.) First, I'd like to make a quick comment....
                        to Steve E. and that is that we should talk more...
                        in depth about your conerns either in e-mail or msg
                        board...
                        I think yu  raised important questions, and
                        I simply can't...
                        answer them sufficiently here....
                        Now, Michael...
                        The state you experienced is common under the...
                        influence of drugs (my friends know I know what i am...
                        talking about here!)....
                        It is NOT a realistic state of mind though...
                        if you use it as an escape from the problems of...
                        everyday life.  However....
                        it can be a real blessing if you use it...
                        It can be a real blessing if you use the experiecne...
                        to help you get a new perspective on your life...
                        In terms of "where" you were at...
                        the drug numbed parts of your brain and
                        created in you..
                        a not complete state of awareness.
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) okay...
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) Michael? Follow up?
(12-5,Michael Pagano) No, Thanks, Don!
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) okay...
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) John e m
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) GA
(12-27,Don D.) Hope that was helpful, Michael.
             hi - a pragmatic question from the scientist in me ...
                        does the altered state actually correlate
                        to a "physical" ..
                        reality. as in as one is projecting ...
                        do the observed physical plane phenomena actually ..
                        correlate to the Real world of our physical bodies ..
                        and if not why?, how does one separate a  ...
                        fictional experience from the "real" experience"
                        and why does it happen?? ga
(12-27,Don D.) Oh Boy!
(12-27,Don D.) You devil!
(12-27,Don D.) 
(12-27,Don D.) First, some people, (Robert Monroe for example)...
                        claim that there OBEs occur in the physical world...
                        In all my experiences out of body, I have never been
                        able to confirm this...
                        Why do my experiences not correlate to the physical
                        world?
                        Honest to God, if I knew this, I'd be the greatest
                        physicist alive!
                        And psychologist too!
                        I don't think any one knows the answer John...
              ? follow up
(12-27,Don D.) The best I've heard is the occult ideas of the planes...
                        as a way to explain the lack of correlation.  does the ..
                        actual plane exist as a single plane in our
                        own space...
                        are we observing experimental evidence of the
                        "multiple " ..
                        world hypothesis? ga
(12-27,Don D.) John, you know i can't do these questions justice here!
  sorry  ga
(12-32,Steven Estrada) ? to john e m
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) perhaps a good topic for the message board?
(12-27,Don D.) If you want, lets start a thread about it. I'd love to discuss
(12-27,Don D.) it with you.
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) okay...
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) Jose is next
(12-35,Jose) okay - hi
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) Jose> GA
(12-35,Jose) regarding the dwellor on the threshold
                        what kinds of experiences does one commonly
                        have in confronting...
                        the negative aspects of his/her personality
                        on the astral? ga
(12-27,Don D.) Usually, the experience takes the form...
                        of encountereing a pitch black being...
                        who makes you scared as hell...
                        and may actually attack you.
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) follow up?
(12-35,Jose) yes
                        and this is a manifestation of your character?
                        can it harm your astral?
(12-27,Don D.) Absolutely not!...
                        Once you encounter this being, and see it
                        for what it is..
                        it will dissapear from your obes...
                        The whole experience is the way Nature shocks you...
                        into taking a good look in the mirror.
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) okay...
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) Hutch is next. GA
(12-18,Hutch) A comment on Steve E.'s earlier point ...
                        About a month ago I started to experiment with lucid ...
                        dreaming following LaBerge ...
                        I was undergoing some moderate emotional stress...
                        which concurrently escalated into making me ...
                        an emotional wreck.  I don't believe the LaBerge text ...
                        talks about any cautions one should take while doing ...
                        the astral thing.  Like Steve, I'm bound and determined ...
                        to experience the astral.  A new thread on caution ...
                        would be good.  Thanks!  
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) okay...
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) Bob M. > GA
(12-49,Bob M) My girlfriend was in a car accident at a young age.
                        She said she remembers seeing
                        the accident site from above and her father holding
                        her. How do you suppose she
                        Hutch., we need to do that....
                        got there? Near death experience or OBE?
                        She was bleeding from the head and has
                        an enormous scar to prove it, but was never
                        techinically dead......
                        she also felt a presence with her..
                        any comment son that?
(12-27,Don D.) Bob, that sounds like a NDE to me...
                        these have much in common with OBEs...
(12-32,Steven Estrada) ! on that.
(12-27,Don D.) death itself is the ultimate OBE.
(12-27,Don D.) 
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) follow up?
(12-49,Bob M) yes
                        she felt a presence with her and a great peace
                        do you suppose it was a "guardian angel"?
(12-27,Don D.) Bob, the idea of "guardian angel" is complicated...
                        It could have been anybody...long desceased relatives,...
                        friendly spirits..or even her own higher self.
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) Okay...
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) folks...
                        I have seven people here lined up...
                        and Don needs to get going...
(12-27,Don D.) No, I can stay longer!
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) can we do some quickies?
                        let's limit to one quesiton, no follow ups...
                        and then follow up on the board tomorrow.
                        okay...
                        John l is next  GA
(12-13,john l) ok..i am not very good at remembering dreams...
                        in fact i have only remembered maybe 5 in my life...
                        how can i will my self to remember my dreams?
(12-27,Don D.) There are a number of things you can do...
                        one is to alter your sleep schedule, waking yourself..
                        up in the middle of the night...
                        This may help you recall dreams better...
                        Another good thing to do is what I describe
                        in the notes...
                        and that is to not think about anything
                        else immediately...
                        upon waking up in the morning, but just try
                        to lay and recall your dreams.
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) ok
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) Next is Jerry
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) GA
(12-17,Jerry S) I think the most important thing you need is determination..
                        This overrides fear, and aids in success.
                        You need firm resolve. ga
(12-27,Don D.) Jerry, thanks for that...
                        however, you need to be intelelctually
                        prepared to cope with the...
                        realities you will experience out-of-body...
                        I have spoken to over 50 people since I put the class...
                        notes into cyberspace....
                        and the most common question I am getting
                        from people is that they...
                        will tell me of something that happened to them,
                        and then ask...
                        what it was and if what it was was ok.
                        So, there is no substitute for understanding what is
                        happening to you.
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) okay...
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) Paul V is next. GA
(12-33,Paul Vercellotti) OK, quickly here:
                        This pertains to john e.m.'s question
                        about whether or not an A.P. corresponds to the
                        physical world:  I think (as do other
                        people) that it can if you want it to.
                        If you want to observe the physical world in an A.P.,
                        then you can if you order all 'hallucinations'
                        to go away, so that you only see the physical
                        world unaltered.
(12-27,Don D.) I'm in no rush
(12-33,Paul Vercellotti) (Everyone should try to write the questions
                        beforehand if they can.)
(12-27,Don D.) Paul, have you ever done this?
(12-33,Paul Vercellotti) Only twice, but this is because I'm having
                        trouble making them last long enough.
                        Twice I've correctly identified what a friend had...
                        put on display in his room for me.
                        When I haven't ordered the ...
                        hallucinations to go away, there were little
                        anomalies with the reality...
                        that I was in - (Things were just in the wrong places,
                        or not there at all.  ga
(12-27,Don D.) Paul, I want to make clear that I am not saying ...
                        that what you or John described is impossible...
                        As a matter of fact, may people report
                        such experiences, However, I can only go on
                        what I have experienced...
                        and I have done many experiemtns while out-of-body...
                        to test the idea that I could percieve
                        the physical plane and I have never been able
                        to confirm this ideas. 
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) okay
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) Steven E. GA
(12-32,Steven Estrada) I have recently went through a psychic attack...
                        directed to me from the astral plane...
                        as dreams of being attacked...
                        So let me tell Jose,  that the way to battle...
                        any negative energy/entity encountered there
                        is to NOT FEAR it.
                        If you do - it CAN do you harm.
                        Next ? - files 1 and 2 from the homework...
                        don't have anything to say about new techniques...
                        What are we trying to do this week?  ga
(12-27,Don D.) Mainly, the idea tonight was to discuss occult concepts of
                        the obe...However, I think that whatever you
                        people feel we should discuss...
                        is what we should discuss....
                        Regarding batteling hostile entities...
                        I've done this a few times...
                        and you can bash their faces in if you want...
                        you have extrodinary power in the OBE realm...
                        and nothing can harm you there,
                        unless you allow it to because you fear it.
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) okay...
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) Jose> GA
(12-35,Jose) what does hypnogogic mean?
(12-27,Don D.) Hypnogogic is a term created by psychologists...
                        to explain the fact that people falling off to sleep...
                        will see very clear images of things behind their...
                        closed eyes.
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) okay...
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) Becky...and then Bob M...Becky> GA
(12-8,Becky) I find my dreams always come true and usually I find
                        that I can remember most everything in detail.
                        What is this/or been?
(12-27,Don D.) Becky, dreams can be prophetic.  most dreams are...
                        if one learns to interpret them correctly....
                        Seth teaches that we create our futures in our dreams...
                        in terms of "where" have you been...
                        there are a number of ways to answer this...
                        you are in a ghost future, but it is also your ...
                        subconscious mind, which is also what occultists call ...
                        the astral plane.
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) okay...
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) Bob M> GA
(12-49,Bob M) Why is it that people  who are really into
                        this material, have such trouble
                        having an experience(OBE). I'm an intellectual,
                        I understand the concept of it. I try,
                        maybe I just try to hard? It seems to me,
                        from the people I know, that it just
                        "happens"....meanwhile, I'm racking my brains trying
                        I've had a little experience
                        with lucid dreaming, but that's about as for as it goes.
(12-27,Don D.) Good question Bob...
                        One, people have different degrees of talent to having
                        OBEs, just like playing musical instruments...
                        this is very important and can't be ignored...
                        practically speaking what this means is that
                        some people need to practice more thanb others...
                        The next thing though is to make sure you
                        are practicing the right things.
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) okay...
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) Jose...and then we will go informal
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) Jose> GA
(12-35,Jose) i think i've seen these so called hypnogogia.  what are they?...
                        does in mean that i maight be close to prjecting?
                        are we seeing these with our astral sight?
                        I tried to wave my hands in front of my face
                        with my eyes closed but without effect. ga
(12-27,Don D.) Jose, I'd like to talk to you more about this...
                        so we should start a thread or you can send me email...
                        but I believe you are seeing these
                        with your astral sight...
                        psychologists do not know what these images are.
                        But yes, you are close to projecting.
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) Don...
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) how about closing the formal part now...
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) and then you all can chat.
(12-27,Don D.) Closing remarks:
                        One thng thast hits me is that the CO
                        is NOT a good way
(John e m )  schedule 1.5 hours next time for the class. ga
(12-27,Don D.) I feel bad I couldn't devote more thought to the questions
                        that were asked...
                        This stuff is very personal, and is very real
                        in our lives and simple answers are not going
                        to bring effective solutions, except in simple cases,
                        of which there were only a few tonight..
                        I suggest that we take our concerns to the msg board...
                        which will get broad feedback from other memebers...
                        and especially those who also project...
                        Otherwise, if people have things they think are too
                        personal, I gladly offer my assistance and ear..
(John e m) I wanted an opinion mostly, not scientific proof
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) okay...
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) formal co is over...
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) feel free to stick around and hash this out...
(12-27,Don D.) I want to thank everyone for showing up.
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) get/give feedback...
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) ask more questions
(12-27,Don D.) So, I'm up for a free for all for a while!
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) it's just me...
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) I've had a long day 
(12-32,Steven Estrada) hey Don - are we trying anything new this week
                        in our dreams,
(12-20,Jessie) Nothing like coming in at the very end.  Hi Don, Rilla
(12-37,Rilla/Moderator) Don said he can stay
(12-32,Steven Estrada) or just dreaming regular?
(12-27,Don D.) Whatever you want, Steven.
(12-32,Steven Estrada) I want to LEARN to consciously oobe.
(12-27,Don D.) You can do it Steve.
(12-32,Steven Estrada) i ONLY DO THAT IN MEDITATION,  NOIT DREAMS.
(12-32,Steven Estrada) HOW do you do it in dreams?
(12-27,Don D.) I don't get it Steve, what are you saying?
(12-27,Don D.) Did you read the notes I posted?
(12-32,Steven Estrada) I want to get in a dream,  and affect what happens.
(12-32,Steven Estrada) I read the notes.   No training there.
(12-32,Steven Estrada) At least not files 1 and 2.
(12-27,Don D.) What do you want to affect, Steve?
(12-49,Bob M) this is my girlfriend....
(12-27,Don D.) Steve, in Files 3 anfd 4 i give lots of technique.
(12-32,Steven Estrada) Bash someones face in maybe on the astral plane (g)
(12-17,Jerry S) The notes mention keeping a diary, which is an essential step.
(12-27,Don D.) Jerry, and John, thanks for showing up!
(12-27,Don D.) It was good moral support!
(12-17,Jerry S) Good job Don.
(12-12,Richard @))  where are the notes Don?
(12-8,Becky) Thanks Don.
(12-49,Bob M) I think i am one of those people who can obe real easy
                and id also like to learn.
(12-27,Don D.) They are in the Psychic Abilities Library...
(12-27,Don D.) the file is called Do_OBE.ZIP
(12-8,Becky) I really enjoyed it, but I will probably be posting
                on the message board with my many questions.  Nite.
(12-20,Jessie) I agree, the notes are great!
(12-32,Steven Estrada) What i WNAT to do is what jeff Wiley and his
                crew do all the time,  group dreams and such.
(12-36,Beth) Steven> Did You have to do that?
(12-27,Don D.) Oh, John , don't worry about it!
(12-32,Steven Estrada) They MANIPULATE their dreams.
(12-13,Joe G) I am new ... but can I jump in ... something about dreams
(12-13,Joe G) has been bugging me for years
(12-27,Don D.) What's up , Joe?
(12-32,Steven Estrada) Beth > it was line noise.
(12-27,Don D.) So, John, I'm eagerly awaiting your letter!
(12-13,Joe G) I know I am dreaming and I try to wake myself up by
(12-13,Joe G) opening my eyes
(12-13,Joe G) However ,, I can't .. Isrtuggle to open them and can't
(12-27,Don D.) joe, what you describe is really common...
(12-13,Joe G) this has been going on for years.  This is also the first
(12-13,Joe G) place I ever got to talk about this.
(12-27,Don D.) Joe, have you read my class notes yet?
(12-12,Richard @)) Cool I have had the same
(12-12,Richard @)) experince.
(12-27,Don D.) yes, me too, many times.
(12-13,Joe G) It is really wierd.  I even feel like I am walking in the room.
(12-13,Joe G) Sometimes, I try to knock over a lamp to wake up.  I
(12-13,Joe G) actually think I did it,  but when I really wake up .. nothing
(12-13,Joe G) is changed.
(12-12,Richard @)) I will be alseep and I will bream I
(12-12,Richard @)) am dreaming and then I will force
(12-12,Richard @)) my self to wake up but when I
(12-12,Richard @)) wake up I am still asleap then
(12-12,Richard @)) some times I wake.
(12-27,Don D.) Joe, that sounds just like what happens to me in my OBEs!
(12-27,Don D.) Richard! What a blast!
(12-13,Joe G) Richard,  that is just like me.
(12-27,Don D.) This is some really weird stuff, no?
(12-49,Bob M) My girlfriend, sitting here, wants to know why she has had
        so many supernatural
(12-49,Bob M) experiences. She can't tell if it's luck or is she more in tune
        with these occurences.
(12-49,Bob M) Or maybe it's because of her NDE. What do YOU (anyone) think?
(12-13,Joe G) I am afraid to go to sleep sometimes.  I hate it.
(12-12,Richard @)) Bob> it is because she has the
(12-12,Richard @)) power to let them hapen. but she
(12-12,Richard @))  dose not weald the power but
(12-12,Richard @)) expereses it's self as wreard
(12-12,Richard @)) things.
(12-27,Don D.) Joe, write me in the e-mail and we can talk about your
(12-27,Don D.) experiences.  Do you have my e-mail address?
(12-49,Bob M) I'm changing my name to Shelby and she's taking the reigns..
(12-13,Joe G) In order to wake up,   usually start yelling.  This wakes up
(12-13,Joe G) everyone in the house.
(12-13,Joe G) No,  I would like to do that.
(12-27,Don D.) Bob, to your girlfriend, it may be that she is just in tune
(12-27,Don D.) with things.  Maybe her NDE was all a part of a greater
(12-27,Don D.) pattern.
(12-13,Joe G) Like I said,,, this is the first I ever really discussed it.
(12-49,Shelby) This is Bob' girlfriend. What do you mean greater pattern?
(12-27,Don D.) Joe, I got your e-mail address and will write you.  This is
(12-27,Don D.) sensitive stuff and we can't really discuss it here as it
(12-27,Don D.) needs.
(12-27,Don D.) Hi Shelby.
(12-27,Don D.) What I mean is...
(12-12,Richard @)) Shelby> what do you meen by
(12-12,Richard @)) supernatural expericnes.
(12-12,Richard @)) ?
(12-13,Joe G) Thanks Don,  I will look for it.  I will be talking to you
(12-27,Don D.) that maybe it is part of your natural abilites unfolding as
(12-27,Don D.) you grow older.
(12-27,Don D.) Will do, Joe.
(12-49,Shelby) Seen many ghosts... and dreams seem to come true
(12-12,Richard @)) shelby> did you see what I typed
(12-12,Richard @)) before?
(12-49,Shelby) I must have missed it.....
(12-49,Shelby) Richard>Just scrolled up and read it.
(12-49,Shelby) Don D.> What is natural abbilities?
(12-12,Richard @)) Shelby> do you think it could
(12-12,Richard @)) aply to you. I have inabled
(12-12,Richard @)) putegists to perate with out me.
(12-27,Don D.) Shelly, it is natural to hav psychic abilities...
(12-27,Don D.) As I have gotten older I have discovered that I have them.
(12-27,Don D.) This may be what is happening to you.
(12-49,Shelby) i just seem to be so confused about everything
(12-12,Richard @)) people can do much more than
(12-12,Richard @)) they think they can when they
(12-12,Richard @)) inpower forces that they do not
(12-12,Richard @)) conciously controll.
(12-49,Shelby) I'm 19
(12-49,Shelby) Thanx Richard
(12-27,Don D.) I'm 28.
(12-12,Richard @)) well Shelby I am 20 and started
(12-12,Richard @)) fealing the energys when I was
(12-12,Richard @)) 14
(12-27,Don D.) Right now, you are facing a lot of different things...
(12-49,Shelby) I was 4 when I had my car accident NDE
(12-12,Richard @)) what is NDE?
(12-49,Shelby) Near Death Experience
(12-27,Don D.) Do you remeber it at all?
(12-12,Richard @)) that will do it to you.
(12-49,Shelby) yes.
(12-49,Shelby) .....
(12-27,Don D.) If you want, maybe you could e-mail me about it.
(12-49,Shelby) I saw my father holding me and I was bleeding and he was
                crying...
(John e m ) gotta go guys --- thanks for nice conference.  I'll send ..
                my transcript to Rilla  to post on-line
(12-49,Shelby) OK. But this is my boyfriend's account so I don't know who
                it's going to say it's from.
(12-12,Richard @)) people forget the first time they
(12-12,Richard @)) go through that way.(when they
(12-12,Richard @)) are conceved)
(12-27,Don D.) Thanks John!
(12-27,Don D.) That's ok Shelby, just mention in the letter that its from
(12-27,Don D.) you.
(12-27,Don D.) Bye John!
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